Post from last thread:
Interesting statistics from last night: Obama won all of the caucuses. Thus far, Obama has won all of the caucuses minus Nevada. States holding primary elections the “score” is 10 for Clinton and 8 for Obama.
DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?
The statistics I just posted point to the reason why HRC doesn’t support caucuses in FL or MI. If the DNC is really interested in full participation they should support a new election.
I believe this most likely will come down to Florida and Michigan. And I do not think the Spring Caucus thing will work as most of the states have already voted and how fair will that look? It will really tear the party up. Since they went ahead an voted anyway (and wanted to do so early), they just need to penalize them by delegate count not erasure. I mean who really wants Florida to have yet another vote? I bet they will compromise on the number of delegates. In hindsight, BO should have placed his name on the ballot anyway in Michigan. Maybe they will just redo the Michigan thing…split thinking again.
I still have to find out who won New Mexico. I am really wondering where the Edwards vote went nationally.
I think Florida and Michigan have different circumstances.
Florida is holding caucuses to elect the delegates but they consider the 1/29 vote to be binding.
Michigan is a much different situation and could have easily been avoided whereas in Florida the Democrats were just along for the ride. IMO, Democrats in Florida are going to be pretty angry if the delegates are not seated given the assurances from Dean and Pelosi. Of course if you are whistling past Dixie and have abandoned the fifty state strategy maybe you don’t care anymore.
“DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?” — Posted by: eprof2
it’s not that caucuses like Colorado are unimportant, eprof2, it’s just that for Obama to impress and win over more of the 800 or so superdelegates (party big wigs who could end up deciding this thing), he’s got to show muscle in a diverse and populous primary. for instance, winning a sizable margin of the popular vote in Ohio, Texas or Pennsylania could get the attention of enough superdelegates to put him over the top
repost from previous thread. You folks are moving faster than I can write.
I listened to some of Obama’s speech last night. I loved his story about his first experience with community organizing. It was dead on true. Been there ,done that and I’ve got a draw full of T shirts. His story could be my story. I took a 3 week vacation and worked a local neighborhood. Knocked on doors, passed out flyers , talked to people and got to know them on a first name basis. Then we had the organizing meeting. Nobody showed up.
Now up to this point anybody can be an organizer. It is the next step that proves who you are.
There is nothing like the total rejection you feel when you are setting in that empty room with unopen cans of soda and a stack of snacks that no one has touched.
So what do you do?
Do you quit?
Or do you get up the next morning and come up with another idea and keep beating your head against that wall.
The rest Obama’ speech had the standard political boiler plate. I don’t even remember it. I just remember our seperate but shared moment when we looked out a window, shook our heads and said “WTF do I do now?”
I could have voted for him just for that.
Jack
If she’s nominated maybe HRC will select UNcommitted as a running mate, seems ‘UN’ gave her a good race in MI.
“for the two states to begin anew and hold party caucuses in the spring. But the Clinton campaign has labored to rally state officials in Florida and Michigan to avoid such a move.”
Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.
Here’s my bet, and suggestion -- seat and award FL delegates in proportion to the outcome of the primary -- no one campaigned there, so no one is prejudiced by doing that. Let Michigan hold a caucus or primary and seat and award delegates based on the outcome. Obama removed his name from the ballot (Why I’ll never know) so it would be unfair to award those delegates to Hillary.
BW, here’s CNN’s report of NM as of about an hour and 1/2 ago -- Obama -- 49%, Hillary 48% (Reflects significant rounding error) with Obama holding a 71 vote advantage out of about 130,000 votes cast. 98% of the vote reported. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#NM
Chairman Duncan of the Republican party just laid out the Talking Points against the Dem in the general:
Can Hillary Clinton Be Trusted?
Is Barrack Obama ready for the responsibility of Commander In Chief?
If those are actually going to be their main talking points, then I would rather fight with a “trust” issue than with an “incompetent: one.
Or Bush’s “fuzzy math” remember that one?
The delegate thing is not standard on any of the major web sites. Now CNN has 811 to 720………….I think they are all trigger happy.
Craig, I saw Dean on MSNBC, and then on CNN. His talking points got smoother for the latter. I think he was on Matthew, where he tried to get Dean to say that it wasn’t fair to seat the delegates.
I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?
Anyone who believes anything from BONBC regarding delegate count has been asleep through a week of blogs. We might need to check the family truckster for CO emmissions. The CNN delegate count seems to be accurate.
Geez…I live here and can’t find any results, but it looks like BR did get less votes that JE. What was final vote in New Mexico?
Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what’s going on in caucuses that’s different from elections. My suspicion is, having gone to more than one caucus in WA state, is that only the truly committed, with time and money and envelope stuffing, are attending the caucuses, woefully under-representive of the population as a whole, whereas the general electorate can more easily go to an election polling place, cast their ballot, and leave feeling like they’ve done their civic duty.
eprof2,
“DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND?”
My point was that as Colorado has a closed caucus, it’s not necessarily representative of a state that has a large number of independents and independent minded people in each party.
Probably my bias against caucus’ is showing.
Here’s what is significant: the Democrats had about twice the number of caucus goers as the Republicans. Of those who attended Democratic caucus’ two thirds went for Obama. Colorado has a significant Hispanic population. Colorado was Hispanic before Colorado was a territory.
Had Colorado had a primary rather than a caucus, we’d have a better feel for how the voters in the state lean.
Blond
With 98% reporting NM is
Clinton 65,293 49% 0
reporting
Obama 65,271 48% 0
Edwards 2,014 2% 0
Richardson 1,171 1% 0
Didn’t Richards get out before Edwards? That might explain the differences in totals if NM has early voting?
hey dnd,
One of our long timers who is not here often is asking if you would write.
The only way I could think of is my email chefstonesheila at gee mail dot com
If you want to find out, let me know and I will help with this transistion. lol ;0)
Craig,
You probably can’t say this to Dan on air, but it would be nice if you tell him that we appreciate him calling out the media for their blatant bias. (But) it is extremely obvious that the avoids talking about his own network, who are the worst abusers!
I suppose he really can’t call out his own network. Just let him know that when he says “the media”, we know he means his own network too, and we understand that he can’t call them out but it’s in his mind when he’s doing it.
I never tune to faux snooze but between cnn and msnbc, msnbc is just horrible.. i mean last night they were just horrible. Right before commerical Joe S was reading a statement that the Hillary campaign released and when he was done, he burst out laughing. You could hear them all laugh as they went to commercial.
I sent msnbc numerous emails last night but in this particular one I said they should all be fired. The bias and unprofessionalism of Chris, Keith, Joe, (who else?), guest Howard, they were all dispicable.
Sad to say, this tornado disaster is taking some of the media off their intended game today of smearing Hillary.
I think the whole caucus concept should be thrown out. In Kansas AND Colorado, they only went to caucuses so they could throw the cost on the parties and counties. And as I said, the ones in Kansas were phoney as a three dollar bill. Pre-determined by party regulars. Plus, I read a few blog reports about how the caucuses can be intimidating for many --that ain’t the American way…..
MSNBC is now reporting the new delegate count as :
838 Obama
834 Clinton.
What happened???
Posted by: Gidget | February 6, 2008 1:18 PM
Yes and they keep emphasizing that “Obama leads!”
but their figures appear to be inaccurate. Of course the #’s will change but cnn is usually correct and their delegate count, whether you include super delegates or not, have Hillary on top. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D
ah the spin of the msm to always put Obama in a good light.
“I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?” Posted by: Linda-in-Wiscosnin
yes, a candidate who controls a majority of the convention delegates can seat them or not at their will (for instance, if Obama gets to the convention with a slim majority and seating Florida/Michigan would switch the victory to Clinton, obviously he would choose to shut out those states) — but if both candidates are short of a controlling majority at convention time, that would trigger a credentials cmte fight unless some other resolution is found
Blonde-
I just read that New Mexico has 16,870 provisional
ballots that they didn’t start counting until 2:00 PM (EST)
so I don’t think those numbers are in the totals yet.
~G
Just emailed the results to my sis and there were two emails waiting — one from Howard Dean and one from Hillary — mo’ money.
HD talking about McBush. I am just feel that McBush is not going to make it to election time…like I stated yesterday if it is a McBush/Huckster ticket
soon-to-be flatliner and a flat brain
Just can’t shake that feeling.
“Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what’s going on in caucuses that’s different from elections.” — eprof2
-- for all the reasons you go on to cite, eprof2, many party regulars view caucuses as merely measurements of organizing strength/depth of support, etc.
big-state primaries measure appeal across the surface, and both skill sets are needed for a nominee to succeed in November
Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.
Posted by: Rezdog | February 6, 2008 1:50 PM
How about fairness and honesty in the facts surrounding Fla and Mich?
Long before we knew who would come out on top in those states, all the party talking heads in those states said they were sure they’d be seated at the convention and teh Dem party wouldn’t risk alienating so many (millions) of voters. Fla could swing Dem which is huge for 2008.. the party can’t risk angering Fla voters.. and they are angry they may be ignored.
A re vote is a JOKE! on every level. Hillary won Fla, time for people to swallow the truth.
Back a couple months ago there was a statement made by Nancy Pelosi regarding this. Dean too. that their authority ends when the doors to the convention open, and that who ever was in the lead was highly likely to seat the delegates from those 2 states, that alienating people in those states would be a disaster for the dem party.
The dem party f’d up badly in such a harsh penalty, now they must swollow their stupidity and do what’s fair, and that’s to seat those delegates. If I lived in florida where Hillary got more than 800,000 votes, more than any candidate of either party in any state (at the time), I would be infuriated too if my party chose to ignore those votes.
BONBC…biggest case of denial I have seen since Faux News
I believe, I understand the grief cycle guys, but loss is like that , I suppose. Eventually they will get to acceptance. Or maybe not….didn’t Tweetie have a life size photo Grandma Obama sitting in chair next to him yesterday.
Mr. Hardballs!
Thanks for putting a reality check on caucas and primary. I was not understanding until now.
Looks like this year is the year the Baby Boomers get a great taste of a full on everything counts election.
I think that Hillary taking care of business in Mich. and Florida was just good sound political insight. Why would the candidates or the dem party want to turn off support in to important states like those—-Florida in particular.
Obama not taking these states seriously shows poor judgement on his part as well as political immaturity.
If he gets the nomination in the fall he and the democratic party should thank Clinton for holding some good will in these states.
Thank you Bill Maher for giving me a RFLMAO moment. http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/17538811/dickheads_of_the_year
Patsi, I agree -- scrap the caucus system -- it is ridiculous. Reminds me of village stonings. In all seriousness, I think it is undemocratic and runs counter to the concepts of secret ballot and one person, one vote.
Vacancy rate of homes highest in more than 40 years.
AVerages are 4 -- 5%, but some cities are over 10%
If you have money, now is the time to go house hunting.
New Mexico went to a caucus format in 2004. And unlike the Iowa caucus, it is simply a paper ballot. Again, the New Mexico dems ave a really crappy ground game….it was obvious in 2004.
The Mahar description of George Bush is a thing of beauty:
Come on, no list of assholes and fuck-ups could be complete without the Dipshit in Chief. Who will tell this president what everyone but him already knows? The theory of evolution. And the times tables. And where the sun goes at night. And that Iraq is going to be three different countries. And that everyone hates us and we’ve run our military into the ground and the Taliban is back and we still haven’t caught bin Laden and the economy is tanking and we wasted eight years blowing the oil companies while the Earth is melting. We had a pretty nice house when this Cat in the Hat of presidents came in and made the mess of all time. And who’s going to clean it all up
I agree with you Craig—
Obama can’t go against the inclusion of Mich. and Florida because he can’t appear to want to disinfranchise voters in these states. If he did keep the delegates out and win the nomination that way——would they support him in the fall or would they still be angry and vote McCain?
jamie -- the housing market is a near disaster, but I’d only go house hunting if I thought the housing market has hit bottom -- and I don’t. I’d wait until the first month that reports of housing market rebound surface, then I’d wait another month to see if it holds.
Little Barry may find that the “party insiders” who hold superdelegate status will make up their own minds, and don’t really care what a greenhorn on the national stage thinks of the system. Now how’s this go? get rid of Florida, Michigan, and superdelegates and we can win if we have more pledged delegates going into the convention? Let’s see if he sings the same tune if Hillary has more pledged delegates in August. Any bets on that one? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html
I watched some of the returns last night with the neighbors. She’s for Hillary, he’s for Obama and their daughter, who will be eligible to vote is seriously for Obama. Their daughter, who is really bright, told me that her generation, who has largely been criticized for not being engaged is now finally engaged and it’s primarily because of Obama.
I asked her what would happen if Obama lost. She told me her generation would once again feel disaffected and that the big money machines control everything. I told her of the same feelings I felt when I was her age and people voted for Nixon over McGovern, and encouraged her to stay engaged. She told me that her generation’s payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn’t bail us out.
I told you she was smart!
Pogo,
Oh I know it is going lower even if it isn’t likely to ever get low enough for me, but I’m always mindful of the old dictate: Buy land they aren’t making any more of it.
Before the fall began I saw that the home I bought in 1964 for 21,900 sold for 500,000 last year. Unfortunately for me, the ex sold it for 30,000 and somehow neglected to give me half. drat!
“Who keeps the OFFICIAL count of the delegates?” --Posted by: truebeliever
that’s the fun of this thing, truebeliever — there really is no OFFICIAL count until the first ballot in Denver, or the second, or the third, or …….
dnd lolol I love a smart youngen.
I find my own son to be more engaged too. He said it was time to kick us all to the curb and start again before we REALLY screw it up.
Move over moms and pops. ;0)
dnd
It used to be called the generation gap.
Much of what is going on here, has been going on since the beginning of time…
Are we really any different than our ancestors? We just have more technology. And I can tell you nothing ages me faster than technology.
Craig—
thank you for the answer? Great so we have to listen to all these speculations and opinions until then.
Well that just makes me think that Clinton is even smarter for staying with Mich and Florida.
Craig thanks for the reply about seating delegates. I don’t feel that Obama would be willing to lose MI & FL in the general. On-the-hand, he may lose if they are seated.
Why isn’t there a keeper of the delegates?
We are having a major snow storm up here today………no school, so no tutoring for me……….so, I get to play on the computer today.
jamie, “It’s the land, Katie Scarlett.” They may not be making more of it, but they are putting more of it out there for sale so be patient. It may even get low enough for you. Been on both sides of the story -- bought one house that sold for exactly what I bought it for five years before (of course, with commission, I made less than I paid for it but got the tax advantage of the interest deduction for those 5 years -- probably a wash) and had one once that sold for 20% more than I bought it for 4 MONTHS before. And I know people who have done much better and much worse than I. Nutty markets.
If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I’m for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring) Don’t you think that should he find himself short on delegates and she wins the election, that it would be his responsibility to the party to see that his voters stay engaged?
A “take my ball and go home attitude would be quite unbecoming of any nominee
trueleliever — pledged delegates are held to voting for the candidates they are sent to represent,(but anything goes if no one wins on the first ballot) — so the numbers of pledged delegates in each state will be fairly hard (and officially tabulated by each state’s elections office). un-pledged superdelegates are a wild card, can do whatever they like
“If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I’m for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring)” truebeliever
I find him reflecting a cult leader. Look at your major cults, church leaders, and horrible state leaders of history. The chanting really scares me. The Beatles had the same affect on the young. Some just find it easier to have someone to think for them, than to think for themselves; like the high school clicks!! Brainwashing doesn’t care about your age, education, background, gender or racial aspects.
Matthew’s just said that if Hillary won, his followers would be heart broken, and she would have to put him on the ticket. IMO that is the worse thing she could do.
Matt Man on one of my favorite blogs came up with this description of the Dem candidates:
Obama won more states, and Hillary Clinton won the big states. Hillary
Chickadee,
The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn’t like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.
The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn’t going after young boys.
Apparently dnd does not agree with you
“I don’t think it’s funny. She may be on to something that us boomers should be concerned about.
That said, I think it’s important to keep the young engaged. Us old coots may think they’re a bunch of dreamers, but fresh, untainted ideas are a good thing. Plus they’re the one’s who will be deciding to put us in the old folks home…
Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008 2:56 PM”
boomers the most over insured generation ever
more homehealth care insurance and more insurance
for bridge care etc. No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them
Hi Truebeliever… I think Obama will be a player even if he doesn’t get the nomination. And I think most of his supporters would go with the Democratic nominee. Not everyone though. If Obama gets the nomination, I won’t vote for him (and that’s the first time I’ve ever felt this way). I plugged my nose and voted for Dukakis and again for Kerry. I could explain my reasons, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t have any illusions that it would matter what I vote anyway; I’m just one person. I am also sure that my viewpoint would not be highly indicative of those who call themselves Democrats. Most will eventually stand up for the nominee.
L in W
Well since I don’t see Obama inviting us to any Kool-aid parties or telling us that the aliens are coming to get us I think we are probably ok.
I think I understand what you are talking about—--someone being so charismatic that he could lead us down the wrong road and make us think that it is good for us.
But isn’t that what Bush has done for 7 years. I don’t see him as cult leader. He isn’t smart enough. People are just paying more attention now.
I am from FL, have always been a strong Democrat and will be more than a liitle annoyed if we are not seated, most Floridians feel the same way. If the Dems want to win in Nov, they better start paying attention to us.
Bear LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! You know there is a movement of people who seem to specifically dig chubby men and women. And there is a group that want to get fat. I never understood that. My middle name is DIET… grrr.
KGC,
“No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them”
Those little snots will soon be in charge of your health care. Lotsa luck if you call them little snots…
Elaine in Tampa
I feel your pain…and I feel the “uniter” (read BO) needs to show us how ready he is to unite the dem party by demanding all the delegates should be allowed in at the convention. Again, I hate seeing the dem party torn-up when we need to focus on November and beating the repugs.
KGC,
I don’t like to make personal missives but you need to get a fistful of Pamprin and chill the F out. Not all baby boomers are insured up the wazoo as you claim. If that were the case, you wouldn’t see all these blue hairs working part time jobs after they retire in order to get food enough money to cover the medications and other expenses.
I wonder how you expect people to take your opinions seriously when all you do is act like a pissed off monkey, throwing handfuls of your shit at passersby at the zoo…
All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won’t exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won’t leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else…
All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won’t exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won’t leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else…
that;s bullshit -- that’s all you heard from Republicans not democrats. get a grip.
Try facts
and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500…I doubt it will be more than 10 years…odd are you will live 10 years beyond that point…you better pray the snot nose kids keep working to support your ass…
and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500
I have it we all get it in the mail every year
and it will be quite a while before I get out everything I paid in …
I will feel more unity when I find out that he has stopped saying that Hillary’s supporters would support him, but that it would not be the other way around. I have heard him say that several times.
Sheila’
Thanks for the support for FL.. We dems do have a penchant for screwing up our chances. BO9the Uniter) is starting to show his real self and the fellow has some teeth.
KGC,
You are an idiot if you forget all the ridicule that Al Gore took because of the Social Security lock box. You have clearly taken the Bush administrations orwellian course on revisionist history.
I swear to god it is easier to reason with a Klansman with a torch in his hand than it is with you…how I long for the days of Fritz…he was vile and rude yet he was much less bitter than you.
I don’t know what your source of bitterness is but I suggest you take a day off your high horse and go volunteer to help the some homeless veterans. They took a bullet and they were willing to die for their country. They have been ignored since that service and they are less bitter than you…
Obama continues with his velvet tongue to get away with saying anything he wants to say, I agree that he says he can win her voters but he doesn’t thinke she can win his supportes. NOOOO not if he is unwilling to encourage them to support her.
Buchana siad it last night there is a underlying sexism and rascism… Why cant we deal with this.
Elaine, I am of the opinion that Howie’s turning the issue over to a credentials committee not controled by him allows the party to fix it and preserve what little face Howie still has. I said when he became party chair that it was a mistake and he wasn fit for the position . I was right and believe that the ridiculous overreaching by trying to strip FL and MI of thier delegates, along with his bowing to pressure to preserve the undue influence IA & NH party officials demand in the nominating process that in a rational world would leave them as bit players without lines confirmed my position re: Howie as party chair being a huge mistake (rivalled only by making Harry Reid the Senate Majority Leader).
elaine--
that’s what I mean. That is what I have noticed in the past few days. Me-- I am a democrat , I will vote for our candidate in the fall—-but alot of people may not feel that way if they are offended too much
You are on target pogo. I am a strong supporter of HRC, but if BO gets the nomination, we should push her for Senate Majority Leader. It would mean the Messiah president would have to deal with her and we might get a decent health Care Plan, a reasoned withdrawal from Iraq, a stimulus package that meets the needs of the Americans in trouble and she would be the main mediator and conciliatory force in the Senate.
I have been talking to some serious party leaders in FL, they are disgusted with HD and the party establishment.
It is too bad, but we have been badly demeaned, ignored and stuffed in a corner. They robbed Floridians of their right to be part of a possible historic election.
Speaking of interesting political plays.. like him or not, John McCain and his supporters really did a number on Romney who was expecting to win in WV (?) and when the McCain people realized they weren’t going to win, they switched over to Huckabee. Dirty as hell politics, but there was some definite savvy in that decision.
Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?
Whatever is good for the Obama.
unlikely_burrito (I love your name and I have a fine wine to go with your name)
BO doesn’t deal with anything last century….and I think his dissing of the past has backed him into a corner.
I know Brain and Warren tell me how brilliant he is (read the book), but to me he really seem stupid by his stance. Millenium Boy ignores the past.
truebeliever,
we have been patient, we have no tother choice. Until recently I have beleived that all would end up ok, I am concerned as BO gets more strength FL loses at the convention. Then all will come running for money. I maxxed out this time, thye willl not be getting my dough.
I agree with unlikely_burrito that super delegates may end up being in trouble also.
Well i don’t think any state should have a monopoly of “first vote” in the Presidential primary, like Iowa and NH have. It’s just not democratic. And states that want an earlier role in the process should not be penalized… at least the people of those states should not be penalized. It’s late, so I don’t know if this made total sense.
And I want everyone to know that I understand how sensitive we all are and by my use of “boy” as in Millenium Boy was not a racial slur. It was intended to show his youthfulness and inexperience. Perhaps, Millenium Juvenile would have been a better moniker.
Blonde wino…
I took a short vacation from the blog just as you came barreling on…..
I want to say “Howdy”….. I’m in NH…. have been to NM several times and absolutely love your state….
I also love wine and was curious what your favorite(s) is/are…..
BJ….. are you the BJ from around Las Vegas that was on this blog when Craig first started it?…
and Obama has yet to state that people who don’t vote for him are not racist as the media tends to suggest….. this one thing still upsets me…..
well… that… and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin….
GO DEMOCRATS!
Hmmmm………..
Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?
Whatever is good for the Obama.
Posted by: unlikely_burrito | February 6, 2008 4:09 PM
I can’t find it anywhere, where OBama wants to get rid of Super Delegates.
can you provide your source please?
EuroTom….
I’m from NH and even I have to agree with you about our insistence on going first….. it’s not about democracy…. it’s about $$$$$…..
this state makes a lot of money going first…. but it’s time for the gravy train to end and let other states have an early say…..
the one thing we may all be able to agree upon is that the system we use to get candidates nominated by the parties appears to be broken….
What a mess. The DNC should step up now! and make it clear what is going to be done with Michigan and Florida, and they should educate the public about the Super- Delegates.
This will deflect it from becoming a issue that OBAMA-boy pouts about to his loyal followers. If OB makes this an issue, and the DNC doesn’t take control the party in-fighting will reach historic levels.
I can see the OB camp blaming the DNC rules on the Clinton Machine….and all the baby-Obama’s will throw little fits.
RR
My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale — best old vine. It is part of my health care program.
My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir — north island.
And they are best drunk in New Mexico…which reminds me I need to check the results again.
Before some of you partisans out there get too stupid.
A reminder of what this election is about. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/26569.html
I never thought in my life time we would talk about torture being the official policy of this nation.
Jack
Obama wins caucuses with Liberal activists in mostly Red States. This sytem should be scrapped. That is a sure ticket for an Obama November victory. Florida and Michigan will be counted and last night was a big loss for BO. I can point to so many things that reflect his poor judgment. NY Independents couldn’t vote and would have gone for Hillary if allowed. Bill’s popularity it quite high and Obama produced the black white issue that has caused him problems nationally.
Biggest problem is that people are growing tired with the vague plaititudes and borrowed rhetoric of BO. Economy and Healthcare seem to go for Hillary. Foreign Policy despite Iraq still favors a more centrist view on a national stage. Immigration, education, vets and energy also trend towards Hillary. I expect Obama breaking his promise and going after Hillary on a personal level again. Hillary needs to watch Texas, Penn and Ohio and keep the pressure to include Florida and Michigan.
The writing is on the wall and the only reason that I say this is to counter the crap spilling from my TV. Some people I met want Hillary just to beat up the sexists, revisionaries, biased and unprofessional pundits and polsters (Zogby is a beaut) who have spouted non-stop for a year. They are the immovable force that should be bitch-slapped by the irresistable force of mainstream Democrats. And Democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don’t want a woman President, not a tough one at least. Perhaps if Jessica Simpson ran they might vote for her.
“She told me that her generation’s payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn’t bail us out.”
I’m sure glad I raised my children to have a moral compass.
Maxtrue, you can see just from this forum that “democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be”. The breadth and scope of sexism from some of the top posting “stars” in here does confound me.
On the other hand, a lot of men posting here are feminists and they understand that gender politics is as legitimate and as important as any other quest for equality in a pretty unequal world.
RR
Burrito reminds me of one of the big fiesta’s here in southern Ne Mexico…The Whole Enchilada Fiesta. We make a large enchilada (biggest in the world according to Guiness) and most of the town shows up to have a piece. http://www.enchiladafiesta.com/
“The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn’t like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.
The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn’t going after young boys.”
Oh my GAWD! Bear I almost fell off my chair laughing.
haah! Linda, that would be refreshing!
Re: Bri Bri, he seems insistent on calling me a “racist”, just like the Obama supporters did to Bill Clinton when he observed that South Carolina would most probably go to BHO, and pointed out that Jesse Jackson carried the state’s democratic votes.
Oh and not that I have to prove my credentials to Bri Bri or his hapless friends, but I was also a DELEGATE for Mr. Jackson and one of the founding members of the Thurston County Rainbow Coalition back in 1988.
Carry on name callers!
I am beginning to believe my black pal down at Vandy was right when he said he was concerned about white agitators calling everyone racist who said anything at all about Obama. He said that in the end the ones crying racism would turn Obama into the affirmative action candidate. This guy, by the way, is a very sharp political type.
A question I would like the candidates to answer but nobody will ask it.
If you are President and proof is brought to you that officials the current administration approved of war crimes, would you prosecute the offenders and how ?
Jack
Max commented--”And Democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don’t want a woman President, not a tough one at least”.
Correct—many men are intimidated by strong, independent women. Yes—it exists in this thread.
Blonde wino….
thanks for all that info….
I’ve never been to Las Cruces….. I should remedy that fact soon….
my hubby, Rick, fell in love with green chiles on our first visit to your state 12 yrs ago….. he still orders them by the case….
I am a hand weaver….. we went to Indian Market in Santa Fe….. I saw Navajo weavings so beautiful that they made me cry…..
I now have several good friends that live there….. one is in Santa Fe and one in your neck of the woods….. in a little town I can’t remember off the top of my head….. he’s a jeweler and went in search of a town where he and his wife could make their jewelry and afford to buy a house….. he says they love living near the Mexican border…..
Blonde wino,
“My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale — best old vine. It is part of my health care program.
My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir — north island”
I once asked a wine afficianado friend what was her favorite wine. Her response: “whatever the one that’s in front of me.”
Renee
“and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin….”
We can be irritated together. She stepped on one of my last nerves even before her husband did.
Unlikey_bee… Oprah has given what could be considered “in-kind” donations… by actively campaigning for BHO. Is there a limit on how much she can contribute? Lord knows she’s got the money.
I used to donate to campaigns til I read the millions Tad Devine, Bob Shrum and their partner pocketed for their expert advise and managing John Kerry’s campaign. If the consultants each get MILLIONS, I think the every day working woman or man shouldn’t be asked to contribute to such costs.
JmHO .. and really goodnight…
xoxoxoxoxo
Yes thanks Pogo,
But Wino, it wasn’t my question, it was Burritos. ;0)
Here burrito;
Obama, at his Chicago press conference just now, lays out his path to the nomination, which depends first on having a majority of pledged delegates.
“If this contest comes down to superdelegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those superdelegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination,” he said.
“The argument we would be making to superdelegates is, if we come into the convention with more pledged delegates then i think we can make a very strong argument that our constituencies have spoken and I think that’s going to be pretty improtant when it comes to the general election,” he says.
Small doner here. I like to donate especially after something MSM says to tick me off. I admit, when they ask, I usually provide some amount.
I might catch up with Oprah, since is such a long campainge.
Re : super Delagates/ Mich / Fla.
Thank you for the insight. I understand, but I also can see where it will, or it can, get very confrontational if the message presented is that it “isn’t fair”
Most voters can deal with the contest if it is precieved as fair.
why is the media still trying to spin an obama victory….they know the clinton camp conceded the caucus states to obama because most of those states wont be in dem corner in nov…obama has only won 2 significant states his own and conn ..why cant the media just be honest for once..(fat chanch)….by the way she won the most gelagates and has a 70 delagate lead but the media was trying to change the math but math is math ….THE MEDIA LOST LAST NIGHT and thats what im the most happy about
——————————————————————————--
DND, been out doing errands this afternoon. Thanks for the insights into CO caucuses. Just as I thought, party regulars and the highly motivated. CO probably didn’t see too many Hispanic and minority participants. Comparing CO with CA and AZ and you can see the difference between the two systems. Craig says the two systems sharpen the skills of the candidates and their strategists. Could be, but after this primary season I’m say, dump the caucuses and let the party people vote in the closed primary systems. Now there is another topic for another time: open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic?
Gentle thoughts for today
Birds of a feather flock together and crap on your car.
************************************************************
When I’m feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the
neighbor’s dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************************************
A penny saved is a government oversight.
************************************************************
The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time,
but also to leave unsaid, the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
Burritto , The unfair argument is going to be used by the looser if it comes down to the super delegates. *shrug* That is the way the system is designed,”unfair”
just like last night where you could win 60 to 40 and come out even in the delegate count.
I think it is about time to bring this system into the modern world. We are not riding to the convention on horseback any more.
Jack
Okay, Craig…I am ready to get all of the Florida and Michigan delegates onto the family truckster and drive to Opralamedy Land to get this delegate thing straightened out once and for all.
good post jack
this democrat system sucks…..so does howard dean….there should be only primaries and at least half winner take …….these candidates have a general election to fight for sgsinst the GOP
EProf
“open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic? ”
More and more people are going the “Decline To State” route (which should probably be standardized in some way since some people register “Independent” not realizing that in some states that is a particular party)
There is much less party loyalty but there could be extreme interest in one part or another during a given election that would attract these middle of the road types.
I would go for an open primary that allows the “decline” types to pick a party on primary or caucus day. The more I think about the less I like the caucus system.
Patsi, I was logging off when I read what you wrote. I was stunned! I had to find out who wrote that. Colleen? I don’t know if I know her. She says I have a crush?!!! LOL… uhhhhh… NO! Why I outta…. If it wasn’t so insulting, it would be really funny.
I really don’t know what to say… I can assure you.. if I stand up to someone whom I perceive to be a bully, it isn’t a “crush” or an “amorous” thought that motivates me.
Anyway, LOL !!!!! I cannot think of anything cogent to say.
Well, I like you Patsi and I like Jamie, and Pogo, and Lardass Liberal, Blonde Wino, Oregon Democrat, and Sheila (even though she does seem to be preaching at me about my anti-Bri Bri intereactions) and Craig Crawford. I can assure all of you that I don’t have an crush on any of you … well maybe Craig! LOL…
I love Obama saying, “Clinton has a well honed machine built over 20 years”.
Doesn’t he think the Kennedy machine is enough to put the fix in?
He is so damn phony.
oh and I forgot Rebellious Renee, and I like Blonde Wino too… Whiskey Jack has great things to say and Nash is clever as can be… And I like whoever it was that was praising Dolly Parton’s new music. That’s a person of great taste,
Jamie, it just goes to show that the “new politics” Obama talked so eloquently about in 2004 has quickly been replaced by the usual “attack and divide” politics. High minded stuff, unless your poll numbers stay in the the toilet.
Very funny TM title! *L*
Competing with Craig and on opposite is Michael Moore on Larry King, CNN.
Larry King repeats here but Abrams doesn’t. So Craig you’ll be the early one and Michael the late one as I’m interested in what ya both have to say.
tt
“Clinton compliment Obama and then give him a shove ”
But she smiles when she says something nice about him. He practically puts his thumb in his mouth and sulks when he tries to say something nice about her.
you guys are bad. I need to sleep and I find this place so entertaining. To be serious, I am mostly enjoying it here. I will be suffering in the morning and I have 3 orders coming in… grrrr. xoxoxoxoxox
There was a great article in Boston.com about when Mitt Romney was running against Ted Kennedy, none other than President Clinton and First Lady Hillary Clinton campaigned tiredlessly for his re-election.
The article is called “A Loss for Kennedy” Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/
Ted Kennedy sure knows how NOT to stand by his friends.
your thoughts?
Tom,
I think Ted Kennedy is a grown man who has made a very important decision. One for his own morals. I am aware that he took a long time to do this. He informed the Clintons before he did it.
And so I think he was honorable.
Back in 1994, Kennedy was suddenly and shockingly vulnerable to a challenge from a rich, smart Republican named Mitt Romney. On the defense in his first real political fight in decades, Kennedy wrapped himself “in President Clinton’s mantle,” the Globe reported in June 1994. “I am honored to stand with him, day after day, week after week, month after month, in our fight for jobs, economic justice, and progress on the great issues like health reform,” Kennedy told delegates to that year’s Democratic state convention.
from the article “A Loss for Ted Kennedy”
The article is called “A Loss for Kennedy” Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/
…..what planet am I on then. I never heard any skewering or I would have been mad.
I heard about his warning to Bill.
I heard Kennedy excited about the message.
But He Never Skewered the Clintons
In what may be Obama’s most direct and aggressive criticism of Bill Clinton’s presidency yet, the Obama campaign dropped a new mailer just before Super Tuesday that blasts “the Clintons” for wreaking massive losses on the Democratic party throughout the 1990s.
Obama has already taken direct aim at the Clinton presidency, arguing in a widely-discussed interview that the GOP was the “party of ideas” during the last decade and a half. This mailer represents more direct criticism of Bill, as well as an overt effort to tie Hillary to the Dem losses suffered under his Presidency — and raise the specter of more Dem losses under a Hillary one. http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_directly_attacks_bills_p.php
Sheila was right yesterday when she said that the Obama supporters don’t want to say anything because the majority here are Hillary supporters and nothing they can say is even considered.
Now I see where Barack’s wife is being blasted for something she said. IIRC when being interviewed and ask what she would do {and this was before any primaries} if she was to lose she said she wasn’t going to lose. When ask but what if you do lose she said she’s never thought about it because she wasn’t going to lose. Sure sounds arrogant to me.
So let me say this, a newbie on the blog here {by new I mean someone who hasn’t been here for as long as some of us} made a comment about the media. And there are a lot of comments about the media lately can also apply here.
Everyone knocks Obama saying he’s a good orator, but gives no specifics on the issues or there not as good as Hillary. He gives a good speech but has no experience. He says he’s going to change the way Washington works, but don’t get specific enough.
On the Hillary side she also gives a good speech, however she does not inspire anyone. She gives specifics and they really sound so much better than what Obama gives. She has over thirty years experience and Obama doesn’t have enough experience.
So now let me say what was said on another thread by Gordo.
If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.
This works both ways. On one hand you all agree on what I have said about Obama, but you don’t believe what he says.
Its not good enough for you.
On Hillary you agree that she gives a good speech, but not as good as Obama. She has substance and lots of specifics on the issues that sound really good, a lot better than Obama. So is it too good to be true?
You have made up your minds and no matter what anyone who supports Obama says you dismiss and belittle his messages so I can understand why Obama supporters do not want to engage anyone on why he is the right person for the Presidency of The United States.
And to the person who suggested he was a cult leader who would lead you to commit suicide because he inspires people and offers them hope of restoring our Constitution and Country you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I for one am glad that Jesus was a cult leader. After all he inspired a lot of people only he didn’t ask them to drink the kool aide.
I don’t comment hear as much as I use to do and I only argued and bashed two people here in all the years I have been a family member of Craig’s and the rest of those regulars.
Those two people were SnowFlake Blue Fritz and Fry. Now I see a lot of that since this is a very important election for our country.
I think that I’ll just lurk from now on and be silent, besides its getting real hard here to keep up since now I’m seeing over four hundred comments on the last thread and this one.
By the way, I don’t hate Hillary and feel that she would be better off in the Senate as Majority Leader than that spineless Harry Reid. At least she could maybe hold the Democrats together and not cave in all the time like Reid does.
I also don’t expect her to make the changes needed to give us are country back. She is part of the problem and not part of the solution. No matter what you think her thirty years experience makes it difficult if not impossible to make the changes necessary that are needed.
As to whether or not the new young voters that Obama brought into the party may feel that there voices still don’t count and stay at home. So even though Hillary supporters may vote for Obama they may not vote for Hillary.
I will vote for her if she the nominee, however I’ll bite my tongue and hold my nose when I do.
Well I’m done ranting. Good luck to all of you and may none of us regret our decision when the election is over.
Take care and…
God Bless.
Sheila , you see doofess when you look at Tucker…I see a gentle light-hearted soul.
Just under 6″ of snow here so far. About 7″ total by midnight. Do I call in to work and stay off the roads , eventhough I live in town???
Ok guys I am going to bed really. Thanks for the chat, the comedy, and the drama. Hope I helped stir up the mix.
Now I get only 5 hours sleep… I’m too old for this stuff
xoxoxoxox
Now I am getting started on the Kennedys Myth and the way I feel expresses how the folks in California and Massachusetts voted. Who cares what the Kennedy’s think? They are not a sqeaky clean klan.
The Kennedy had their beginnings in boot legging and by the the time they ended-up in the White House…it was Camelot. And after Jack was assasinated, Jackie shows-up naked in Greece and marries Aristotle O. And we treat Caroline Kennedy like a princess….geez. Maybe the American peeps are finally getting smarter…hold that thought.
a-p
You are taking things to serious and need to lighten-up. For 8 years we have been under the stranglehold of GWB and we have been terrorized by security alerts, wire tapping and some pretty awful pictures of torture.
Let’s look at the puppies..instead. http://www.winedogs.com/
Karolenna
The last time I looked he had 26. Even though he has quit the campaign, he has not released them. If he chooses to endorse someone, courtesy would usually have them follow his lead for at least the first ballot at the convention, though they would not be absolutely obligated to do so. That gives him some leverage to bargain with the viable candidates.
After the first ballot, they are free agents and can cut their own deals.
Obama went to Florida and said he would seat the delegation. Why has he changed his mind.
And now he wants to change the rules about super delegates.
Obama is the one with the problem keeping his word
If anyone of you thinks that the educated white male will vote for HRC as they did for Obama, I believe you are completely wrong. They will either not vote, as I won
Craig what s up on the senate floor today that obama had to be led away by the arm out of the room by sen kerry after hillary was talking to sen kennedy.
LL
It was I who suggested (tongue in cheek — and please do not take that the wrong way, a-p) that Brain was being questioned by the police for “embracing a youth under 16.” It was a play on words, probably not really funny, but was a lot of fun to type. Like I said, we have been so miserable for years under GWB, we need to have some harmless fun.
Anon-paranoid @ 6:10 pm,
Rant all you want because you have some good things to say. I agree with you on most of your comments. I have always said that HRC would best serve this country in the Senate. I even have thought that Obama may ask her to be Secretary of State, then all that traveling around the world and talking with so many leaders she has bragged about would come into play for her.
She should have kept some of the money she spent on her speaking coach, because I don
anon-p,
I miss ya. Your opinions are well thought out and respected here by those of us who’ve been here for a while. If some want to snark at you, f#*k ‘em. They’ll probably move on soon enough.
I think it’s beyond just “bugging” you. I think people recognize these facial expressions and temperments, and it reminds them of people they have dealt with in real life.
If it walks like a duck….. on and on
Experience is the teacher, and many women have a truly remarkable “gut” feeling intuition when they watch people. In my experience they are usually correct or at least very close.
I’ll get slammed for this, but I do not think “most” men that same intense level of intuition.
disclaimer: not meant to enrage or upset or hurt anyones feeling….
My brother was accused of having sex with underage girls and he didn’t think that was funny. It was posted on a blog and he is suing them for it.
Even in jest its not funny.
As far as I know gays are not pedophiles, whereas straight men are more likely to be pedophiles.
And for the person that said someone told them that Bill Clinton hurt the Democratic Party here is a link that tells the loses to the Party while Bill was President.
I personally thought Bill was a good President, but these figures don’t lie. Read the full article. http://blogs.salon.com/0002255/2008/01/28.html#a1929
Signing off.
Jamie: I want to back up what you said about Hillary being very warm in person. I attended rallies for all of the candidates multiple times over the last year. I saw Hillary about 6 times and Obama 3 or 4 (would have been once more but he did not attend the Cancer Forum.)
Hillary is VERY warm in person. When she shakes your hand she stops, looks you in the eye, pauses and greets you. She really makes a connection.
To the contrary, when I had Obama sign my book he did not look at me, was speaking to other people and just aimlessly signing things as he walked, more like a celebrity walk of the red carpet. I have seen this repeated on the news many times.
This did not make a difference in my vote, but it directly addresses the issue Karolenna brings up so I wanted to respond to it.
The other person who is lovely in person is Bill Richardson. He has solid ideas as well. I was sorry to see he never got any traction.
Burrito: Yes, very true. I saw him three times in the last year and he is respectful and commanding in person. However, I did not feel he overpowered Hillary as some have pointed out. I actually thought they complemented each other very well. She has a very different style than he does: practical, nurturing, policy wonk-ish. I am drawn to this (not sure what this says about me?!) and this is probably why I liked Richardson as well.
Hi Sheila…
I’m not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me. Don’t take that wrong though. I really like those whom I know from the beginning, however truth be told its like my grandfather told me when I was so much younger than today.
Never talk Religion or Politics because you will end up losing friends if their views differ from yours. Truer words were never spoken.
God Bless.
I know that I am new to the blog and naive, but I personally hope for a Clinton/Obama ticket. I feel that the longer this campaign continues, the more divided the party will become and the only way to heal is to unite and conquer.
burrito,
“Bill Clinton is the same way, warm and kind to those he meets. The word “respectful” also comes to mind.”
You betcha. Just ask Monica. Or Paula. Or Gennifer. Or….
Talk to those in the inner circle. He has a hair-trigger temper.
But he is the consummate salesman. That is clear.
Anon…
I’m joining you in checking out for awhile, but I hope we’ll both be back once sanity and cooler heads have prevailed on this blog. I’ll still be lurking, but it’s no longer worth it to come here every day to read the same diatribe over and over, or to watch as people I previously respected call each other -- and the presidential candidates -- names, and try to rip each other apart.
To those of you’ve who’ve managed to retain your dignity and to treat others with respect -- and you know who you are! -- thank you!
“I’m not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me”
Oh Good God. Anon you’ve become, uh, paranoid. You say some of the damndest things then immediately boo-hoo when questioned. And PLEASE stop injecting Jesus into this dialogue.
I just saw a report on McCain’s voting record. Found it interesting. We know all about Hillary’s voting records, but what about Obama’s. All I know for sure is he voted No on the war vote. Why is the media giving this guy a free ride. Let’s here some more information on him.
Use to be we could all debate our differences here and still respect and enjoy each other. Now it’s dominated with bile that contributes nothing to the discussion. I’m with 9/11, anon-p and harborwoman. See ya.
I want the media to treating him the same way everyone else is being treated. They could of done the same report on him as they did on McCain. No more free ride, it’s gone on long enough. What’s fair is fair. Maybe he will do even better in the rest of the races. I don’t want dirt on him. We all don’t have computers, some depend on the media to do their jobs.
dnd,
Its with a heavy heart to see you go. But I DO understand. Remember things swing both ways and this pendulum may swing back to the fine days of this blog!
Is Obama Being Hurt By MSNBC And His Other Media Worshippers
Indeed. As Crawford points out, last night Tom Brokaw went on MSNBC and chastised his colleagues for getting so far ahead of themselves.
VaDaryl
“No on the war vote.” He never voted on it. He wasn’t in the Senate at the time. He spoke out against the war at the time. When asked about that specific piece of legislation, he has said he doesn’t know how he would have voted.
OK, Press him on that issue. What do you mean I am not sure what I would of done. You said on the first day the new Pres has to make the right decision.
Corey
honest criticism and being called on your criticism in a polite manner is not bashing. IMO None of the candidates are perfect and there is room to point out the flaws in all of them. I have read little bashing in here, I have how ever read the same criticisms repeated ad nausium about both democratic candidates. Some of them becoming very outdated. I mthink Obama has proven he can take a hit from anyone. I think HRC has proven she can draw votes from a broad spectrum of the American people and will not hurt the down ticket candidates. Just two I’ve read at least once in the last hour.
Jack
He was the one who said he didn’t know for sure how he would have voted. No one has ever pushed him on it. They just take the speech he made opposing the war at face value. Since entering the Senate, his voting record has been almost identical to Senator Clinton.
vadaryl,
I really am tired of this babysitting….if you want your info, go on to the Obama website where it is public information.
Or haven’t looked, but its probably on his senate website…..because again…..its public information.
now if you really want to get snippy, I indeed, remember when his voting record was vetted by everybody and their mother in in January of 2007. If you didn’t catch it then, go look for it. Its public information.
Also why was he so low keyed in his press conference today. He almost put me to sleep. Great idea to have one but have some energy. I don’t think he needed to be over excited but that was not one of his best moments. He’s getting better, but this was not one of his best moments.
It’s not babysitting for people who don’t have access to info like we do. Millions of people don’t have computers but depend on MSNBC, CNN, and FOX for their info. Also Time, Newsweek and their local paper. Yes I missed Jan 2007 reports. But tonight I got a handful of info on McCain, on Obama how great his movement has been going.
Jack , what I meant was that people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Hillary and people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Obama.
Hi everyone…
As an experiment, I’d suggest that you all stay off the blog for a full day (as I have today) and then go back and read the full thread. Some of the taunting and dissing here is totally 3rd Grade playground crapola. Devalues the blog. Makes for lousy reading.
Makes me want to dig out my old “Dick, Jane and Sally” reading primers from my mid-60s childhood. At least those stories had a point.
We’re all better than this.
Later.
Sheila said,
“if you want your info, go on to the Obama website”
What ? You mean like have an informed opinion?
Radical, Sheila , simply radical.
That would put most blogs out of business, not to mention what it might do to cable news.
lol reminds me of when I got troll rated for a week on TPM cafe.
My comment “It is called google use it!”
Jack
Here is the “Spike Math” version of the DEMOCRATIC Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.
The counts are only those of “hard pledged” delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary.
It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become “hard pledged” until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates. http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf
The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.
Pre-February 5th Delegates
Clinton:……….21
Obama:………34
Edwards:……12
February 5 Delegates
Clinton:……….754
Obama:………721
Subtotal: January 3 -- February results
Clinton:……….775
Obama:………755
Edwards………12
Fl/MI Delegates
Clinton:……….201
Obama:………130
Edwards………11
PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Clinton:……….976
Obama:………885
Edwards……….23
Vadaryl:
If you took of your Clinton-coloered glasses -- you might see his press conference differently.
Perhaps even gracious as opposed to some NY politician at the Giants parade whooping it up like a pep rally.
Jack:
I would hardly call the tone in here “polite” and nor shoud it be. Of course respecting the poster -- if not their points -- is always necessary.
Here is the “Spike Math” version of the REPUBLICAN Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.
The counts are only those of “hard pledged” delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary, or in some states, the results of a winner-take-all primary.
It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become “hard pledged” until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates. http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf
The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.
Pre-February 5th Delegates
Huckabee…….1
McCain……….88
Romney……..34
February 5 Delegates
Huckabee…176
McCain……..539
Romney……..74
PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Huckabee…177
McCain……..627
Romney……108
Media Weeps With Joy Over Hillary’s Latest “Tears” Moment
Meanwhile, assorted pundits wept hot tears of joy at having been granted another chance to seize on a trivial and ultimately meaningless moment to insinuate that Hillary’s inner Lady Macbeth was on display yet again. Predictably, the Hardball gang obsessed over the moment, with Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson telling Chris Matthews that Hillary’s tears are caused by “an impending primary. It just breaks her down.” http://talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/
Just to let you know I think he will be a great president. He has come a long way since the convention in 2004. I am just not convinced he is ready today.
Oh, lovely. The only thing holding back the states from a disgusting and chaotic Greed Rush was the knowledge that they would be punished. Now we’re screwed unless both parties can be talked into the Delaware Plan.
Whatever Hillary does, it makes headlines, why? If her dress is ugly, she has a tear in her eye, etc. Then let’s hear, that Obama’s tie does not match his suit. See how silly that is.
Patsi…I know you’re a Hillary supporter just as I am, hugely. I will also strongly support Obama if he wins the nom.
But even the strongest Clinton supporters cannot help but be scared about the potential mudslides from the following story. I’m sure you’ve read it. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html?hp
I am glad she is strong enough to take it. I just hope Obama will be the same when Hannity and crew start their war path on him. If he does have anything in the past you bet Hannity will expose it.
Lardass Liberal: When this blog blew up a few weeks ago it entered a point of no return.
I was wondering, as I turned on TV there was And. Mitchell crying about how party-fracturing a brokered convention would be. A few days ago Craig Crawford said it would be a journalist’s dream.
The pundits said McCain would love it as it would practically guarantee him the White House.
Would average voters rebel and vote for McCain if the candidate was decided by secret superdelegates, uncommitted to any one candidate?
KGC…doesn’t matter. The damn thing rings true. Bill is out there peddling influence. Why else would a former U.S. prez fly to Kazakhstan on a moment’s notice?
As far as the Kazak prez is concerned, this is like having Tsar Peter fly into his realm, circa 1850. Doesn’t matter if the guy is current or former head of state. In the politics of Central Asia….a former US Prez is as good as a current one.
Katherine:
The media and the pundits feel free to distort and slant stories about the Clintons. The battle-scars of the Clintons leave them more open to incoming fire.
Especially when they have one of the most cut-throat and well-armed camps themselves.
It is far more difficult to engage in those type of tactics against Obama or McCain who do not have a history of bitter partisan battles.
Here’s a link for you to read about Blair and other British government officials being investigated for War Crimes. Its the third or fourth item down. http://carolsplaceforpeace.blogspot.com/
Signing off.
KGC…I’d be careful about how you define “false claim”.
A rushed trip to a remote spot on the globe by a former U.S. president…which is followed by a $100 million gift by the apparent beneficiary of such gift….???
Doesn’t pass the smell test. It scares me.
btw, the Wright Bros. exhibits and the Monument to Flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, are really cool…as a devotee of Nag’s Head and environs for a vacation destination, I highly recommend it, especially for people with kids or grandkids.
KGC…I’m not sure what “distorted” means. All I know is that both Bill Clinton and the Canadian billionaire changed their responses once it was clear they were pretty much nailed. Van Atta is a solid, top-notch reporter. Read his stuff from 2001 on overseas absentees if you don’t believe me.
As a journalist, myself, this story is as smelly as a dead possum. Hopefully, it won’t dent Hillary…but one never knows.
Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack’s administration as opposed to Hillary’s?
He could be Sec. of State or Middle East peace envoy without dealing with all of the co-president issues.
The two-for-one deal failed when the first raised it in the 90′s. It also failed when Bill got too active in this campaign and starting competing for news stories.
Hillary’s strengths are being a wonk fluent with the details and beating down the opposition . . . and she is more effective in the Senate.
The kerfuffle that surrounded President Clinton’s red-faced criticisms of Mr. Obama, over the Iraq war, over race, over American history, brought to an abrupt halt the due diligence about the Illinois senator’s background and beliefs that voters deserve. If the press, or the Clintons, do not close this reporting deficit and Mr. Obama becomes the Democratic candidate, you can be sure that Mr. McCain’s allies will take their duties more seriously http://www.nysun.com/article/70839?page_no=2
Craig-- on Abrams now--Great line re: “all the kids are in rehab”! Also, you finally got to say what needed to
be said about the Obama media swoon. Amen
lardass
What influence was he pedaling? As a private citizen he has none to pedal. Was HRC involved in any way? What he does have is great access. From what I could see he was arranging a meeting. It is done everyday. What do you think all those generals do when they retire. They go to work for a big contractor or 2 or in the case Barry Mcafferty 8 or 10. Then all they do is arrange meetings. In addition the money didn’t go in his pocket but for his foundation. Lastly it was 3 years ago. Now if it was tied in any way to a decision made HRC then sure you might have a point. If he does the same thing when his wife is president then that would be troublesome. In fact it would be very Billy Carterish.
Jack
Craig-
Dan Abram’s 5 points were spot on and your comments illustrated the truth in them wonderfully (as did Pat and I never thought I’d say that) But wasn’t it a bit disingenuous to use clips from FOX and CNN when some of the loudest Obama cheerleading and Hillary bashing was done on MSNBC….
~G
Agree Chris and Pat would make a good show. Isn’t Abrams a managing dir of MSNBC?
They need some fresh faces, after 10 thye have prison shows, the repetitive sexual deviant “caught you shows”. How do we pursue this?
“Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack’s administration as opposed to Hillary’s?”
I am truly on the floor laughing. Warren, you fascinate me. Is this a bunch of sexist claptrap or what? Best let the boys handle things.
Just like that OINKER Dana Milbank sneered an hour or so ago saying that Hillary’s money problems “can’t be solved with a bake sale.”
DO YOU HEAR YOURSELVES?
I feel like I’m back in the days when Stokley Carmichael, speaking for the civil rights and anti-war movements said: “The only place for women in this movement is prone.”
And you wonder what spurred the birth of the modern feminist movement?
Hey WJack…I’m not pretending to know what it all means, or whether it’s right or wrong. All I know is that $100M is a lot of money, is a great number for a newspaper headline, and that there are bound to be a TON of questions as this election season wears on.
KGC
So now small time poker games are dens of corruption. Harry Truman would be shocked. I like the fact that Obama plays poker, It is good to know that he is a methodical cautious player. That would be better than the bet big and bluff idiot, we now have occupying the White House.
Although if I could just get dubya to come to my weekly game, I could quit working and retire. I could even be polite. What the hell as long as he brought plenty of money.
Jack
IRan
agree MSNBC has fallen to the bottom of the barrel. They need new blood. They are a media outlet.
I have been watching and I can’t believe I am saying but I am really liking Buchanan. I dont agree philosophically but he has been more objective and has attempted to speak up for HRC.
I think Carig and Pat and Rachel would be great and fair.
Lets do it. Tell me where we need to go for action.
I’ve GOT IT!
“Craig & Pat’s MSNBC Dance Party”! One hour of nothing but dancing interspersed with political debate. Sort of Soul Train meets McNeil Lehrer. WHADDAYA THINK?
Of course, we’ll have to wait for Craig’s ankle to heal…
I know when a man yelled a HRC iron my shirts it was a big joek. If a woman had yelled at BO shine my shoes, we would have days of discusiion re rascism.
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack | February 6, 2008 9:48 PM
kind of like Duke Cunningham played poker
and I think you need to read more of the article if you think it is about playing poker
elaine of tampa: ack IRan?? oh great now McCain will want to bomb me and I just got a haircut.(tongue in cheek)(wait that’s not my tongue)(or my cheek)
I don’t see an e-mail address, probably won’t show since I have java script turned off. oh well when in doubt wait for Jamie, I think she has a link
(*gigglesnorts* As much as I approve of the slash, LardassLiberal, that’s not a ship I’m willing to sail… ;~D)
How about “Craig & Pat’s Mystery Date Dance Party”, that way they could have a “mystery guest”…and the kicker would be that even THEY wouldn’t know who it was gonna be until the person showed up. One day it might be Kofi Annan, the next it’d be Paris Hilton.
LardassLiberal: I don’t know, that makes it sound like Craig and Pat are on a date
how about
Craig and Pat’s Big Dancification and Fried Bologna Sammich Hour
OH, okay…the reference went right over my head, Lardass, but day-yam, that’s a good one: just obscure enough, plus it combines C-SPAN with 60s teen dance show television, something that is VERY difficult to do! KUDOS to you!
We are a Country that commits War Crimes. See this posting on the admission of Waterboarding.
I can only say that its speaks volumes to what our country has become under Der Fuhrer Adolph Bush and the Dark Lord Dick {Heinrich Himmler} Cheney.
And both houses of Congress are complicit in War Crimes.
Read it here. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/5/16491/97712/63/450486
Signing off.
KGC
Not kinda like Duke at all.
Kinda like every court house and city hall in this nation.
Small time.
quote
“players left a few hundred dollars richer or poorer.” /quote
That describes a 5 dollar limit poker game.
If you think those are big stakes you need to get out more.
A place of relaxed access not rampant corruption. Now , show me the $1000 hookers and I might agree to your point ;-0
Jack
lardassLiberal
thanks it is agreat piece, need to send to everyone I know.
I think the author needs to be Craig and Pat’s first guest. What about that.
Anon-Paranoid,
I probably don’t like Bush-Cheney any more than you do. But to compare them to Hitler-Himmler is just stupid and it trivializes the horror of what the Nazis did on this planet in the 1930s and 1940s. What Hitler-Himmler did involved wholesale rounding up and extermination of an entire class of citizens…to the tune of 6 million plus. What’s going on now in the world bears no relation to that horror.
Get a new comparison, sir. That one rings hollow.
Anon
As i said earlyier today . I would like the candidates have to answer this question.
“If , after you are elected president, you are brought evidence that members of the current adminisrtation have approve of war crimes will you prosecute and how will you do it.?”
I think that question should be ask at every debate
Jack
And before anyone complains about the link you can google this and it will come up as it was just admitted in hearings and also mentioned by a White House spokesperson though I don’t remember his name.
Signing off.
You know, I don’t have a problem with a do-over in Florida and Michigan. The previous primaries were fake anyway, where the other candidates were penalized for keeping their word. So why not do it over so that everyone is on an even playing field? Clinton “won” them before. Why can’t she really win them in a second time?
you people are spending way too much time on line and writing way too much for the average bear to read in a day and still have a life.
yo soy Horsedooty!
when I first moved to New Hampster in 1980 and 1, I worked for a guy clearing trees from his property so he would have a better view of Mount Washington. With that in mind after the 2002 SotU address I wrote a piece on my then blog called, I, Ran: Axes of evil: The Story of a Rogue Lumberjack. It was pretty humorous..at least according to the guy that read it
alpha
BO was advertising all over FL. Golden Boy did not keep his promise not to advertise. He had several private fundraisers and met with grass roots supporters.
Sen Clinton did not advertise
But again a double standard, everone let him get away with it. I have been an HRC supporter and thought he was ok, he lost my respect with that obvious slap to the process. We had the Kennedy ads, his bacground ads, etc.
Julia
Godwins Law;
That pretty much discribes the state of the discussion between the left and the
bush administration.
no reason to keep it going no useful information being exchanged.
Jack
Hi Craig…home from jury duty…I was actually thinking about this very thing driving to the courthouse.
Hey…I was first, but I haven’t read the other posts to catch-up!
MSNBC is now reporting the new delegate count as :
838 Obama
834 Clinton.
What happened???
Post from last thread:
Interesting statistics from last night: Obama won all of the caucuses. Thus far, Obama has won all of the caucuses minus Nevada. States holding primary elections the “score” is 10 for Clinton and 8 for Obama.
DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?
The statistics I just posted point to the reason why HRC doesn’t support caucuses in FL or MI. If the DNC is really interested in full participation they should support a new election.
where can you find the true delegate count? The counts are all over the place. which one is correct
Gidget | February 6, 2008 1:18 PM
cbs has 974 to 905
cnn has 820 to 728
I think we need to just watch until they do the math.
I believe this most likely will come down to Florida and Michigan. And I do not think the Spring Caucus thing will work as most of the states have already voted and how fair will that look? It will really tear the party up. Since they went ahead an voted anyway (and wanted to do so early), they just need to penalize them by delegate count not erasure. I mean who really wants Florida to have yet another vote? I bet they will compromise on the number of delegates. In hindsight, BO should have placed his name on the ballot anyway in Michigan. Maybe they will just redo the Michigan thing…split thinking again.
I still have to find out who won New Mexico. I am really wondering where the Edwards vote went nationally.
I think Florida and Michigan have different circumstances.
Florida is holding caucuses to elect the delegates but they consider the 1/29 vote to be binding.
Michigan is a much different situation and could have easily been avoided whereas in Florida the Democrats were just along for the ride. IMO, Democrats in Florida are going to be pretty angry if the delegates are not seated given the assurances from Dean and Pelosi. Of course if you are whistling past Dixie and have abandoned the fifty state strategy maybe you don’t care anymore.
“DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?” — Posted by: eprof2
it’s not that caucuses like Colorado are unimportant, eprof2, it’s just that for Obama to impress and win over more of the 800 or so superdelegates (party big wigs who could end up deciding this thing), he’s got to show muscle in a diverse and populous primary. for instance, winning a sizable margin of the popular vote in Ohio, Texas or Pennsylania could get the attention of enough superdelegates to put him over the top
repost from previous thread. You folks are moving faster than I can write.
I listened to some of Obama’s speech last night. I loved his story about his first experience with community organizing. It was dead on true. Been there ,done that and I’ve got a draw full of T shirts. His story could be my story. I took a 3 week vacation and worked a local neighborhood. Knocked on doors, passed out flyers , talked to people and got to know them on a first name basis. Then we had the organizing meeting. Nobody showed up.
Now up to this point anybody can be an organizer. It is the next step that proves who you are.
There is nothing like the total rejection you feel when you are setting in that empty room with unopen cans of soda and a stack of snacks that no one has touched.
So what do you do?
Do you quit?
Or do you get up the next morning and come up with another idea and keep beating your head against that wall.
The rest Obama’ speech had the standard political boiler plate. I don’t even remember it. I just remember our seperate but shared moment when we looked out a window, shook our heads and said “WTF do I do now?”
I could have voted for him just for that.
Jack
If she’s nominated maybe HRC will select UNcommitted as a running mate, seems ‘UN’ gave her a good race in MI.
“for the two states to begin anew and hold party caucuses in the spring. But the Clinton campaign has labored to rally state officials in Florida and Michigan to avoid such a move.”
Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.
L-in-W-
The SF Chronicle is reporting
Barack Obama 673
Hillary Rodham Clinton 784
MSNBC is the only place I can find BO ahead…
suspicious…..hmmm.
MSNBC is the only place I can find BO ahead…
suspicious…..hmmm.
They must use Karl Rove’s math.
Here’s my bet, and suggestion -- seat and award FL delegates in proportion to the outcome of the primary -- no one campaigned there, so no one is prejudiced by doing that. Let Michigan hold a caucus or primary and seat and award delegates based on the outcome. Obama removed his name from the ballot (Why I’ll never know) so it would be unfair to award those delegates to Hillary.
BW, here’s CNN’s report of NM as of about an hour and 1/2 ago -- Obama -- 49%, Hillary 48% (Reflects significant rounding error) with Obama holding a 71 vote advantage out of about 130,000 votes cast. 98% of the vote reported.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#NM
Chairman Duncan of the Republican party just laid out the Talking Points against the Dem in the general:
Can Hillary Clinton Be Trusted?
Is Barrack Obama ready for the responsibility of Commander In Chief?
If those are actually going to be their main talking points, then I would rather fight with a “trust” issue than with an “incompetent: one.
As opposed to obama who went to Florida in sept and said he would support seating the delegation.
But has changed his mind since he didn’t win.
Obama Motto
“If I didn’t win it was either rigged or racist”
or my personal favorite, the early voters are stupid.
KGC-
Re: Karl Rove Math-
Even FOX is reporting
Hillary Clinton 845
Barack Obama 765
Or Bush’s “fuzzy math” remember that one?
The delegate thing is not standard on any of the major web sites. Now CNN has 811 to 720………….I think they are all trigger happy.
Craig, I saw Dean on MSNBC, and then on CNN. His talking points got smoother for the latter. I think he was on Matthew, where he tried to get Dean to say that it wasn’t fair to seat the delegates.
I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?
Anyone who believes anything from BONBC regarding delegate count has been asleep through a week of blogs. We might need to check the family truckster for CO emmissions. The CNN delegate count seems to be accurate.
Geez…I live here and can’t find any results, but it looks like BR did get less votes that JE. What was final vote in New Mexico?
Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what’s going on in caucuses that’s different from elections. My suspicion is, having gone to more than one caucus in WA state, is that only the truly committed, with time and money and envelope stuffing, are attending the caucuses, woefully under-representive of the population as a whole, whereas the general electorate can more easily go to an election polling place, cast their ballot, and leave feeling like they’ve done their civic duty.
Yep, even Huffington(GObama)Post’s live delegate says Clinton’s delegate lead is 79.
eprof2,
“DND mentioned that he didn’t think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND?”
My point was that as Colorado has a closed caucus, it’s not necessarily representative of a state that has a large number of independents and independent minded people in each party.
Probably my bias against caucus’ is showing.
Here’s what is significant: the Democrats had about twice the number of caucus goers as the Republicans. Of those who attended Democratic caucus’ two thirds went for Obama. Colorado has a significant Hispanic population. Colorado was Hispanic before Colorado was a territory.
Had Colorado had a primary rather than a caucus, we’d have a better feel for how the voters in the state lean.
eprof2,
I meant to write what you said in your 2:02 post.
BW, click on the link in my 1:52 p.m. post for the NM results. You’re right about BR getting fewer vores than JE, by a bit more than half.
Blond
With 98% reporting NM is
Clinton 65,293 49% 0
reporting
Obama 65,271 48% 0
Edwards 2,014 2% 0
Richardson 1,171 1% 0
Didn’t Richards get out before Edwards? That might explain the differences in totals if NM has early voting?
hey dnd,
One of our long timers who is not here often is asking if you would write.
The only way I could think of is my email chefstonesheila at gee mail dot com
If you want to find out, let me know and I will help with this transistion. lol ;0)
Thanks, Pogo
Here is CNN delegate info
http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D
Craig,
You probably can’t say this to Dan on air, but it would be nice if you tell him that we appreciate him calling out the media for their blatant bias. (But) it is extremely obvious that the avoids talking about his own network, who are the worst abusers!
I suppose he really can’t call out his own network. Just let him know that when he says “the media”, we know he means his own network too, and we understand that he can’t call them out but it’s in his mind when he’s doing it.
I never tune to faux snooze but between cnn and msnbc, msnbc is just horrible.. i mean last night they were just horrible. Right before commerical Joe S was reading a statement that the Hillary campaign released and when he was done, he burst out laughing. You could hear them all laugh as they went to commercial.
I sent msnbc numerous emails last night but in this particular one I said they should all be fired. The bias and unprofessionalism of Chris, Keith, Joe, (who else?), guest Howard, they were all dispicable.
Sad to say, this tornado disaster is taking some of the media off their intended game today of smearing Hillary.
New Mexico…update two minutes ago
Clinton 66,173 49% 0 98%
reporting
Obama 65,963 48% 0
Edwards 2,025 2% 0
Richardson 1,181 1% 0
Uncommitted 402 0% 0
Full New Mexico Democratic Exit Poll
I think the whole caucus concept should be thrown out. In Kansas AND Colorado, they only went to caucuses so they could throw the cost on the parties and counties. And as I said, the ones in Kansas were phoney as a three dollar bill. Pre-determined by party regulars. Plus, I read a few blog reports about how the caucuses can be intimidating for many --that ain’t the American way…..
MSNBC is now reporting the new delegate count as :
838 Obama
834 Clinton.
What happened???
Posted by: Gidget | February 6, 2008 1:18 PM
Yes and they keep emphasizing that “Obama leads!”
but their figures appear to be inaccurate. Of course the #’s will change but cnn is usually correct and their delegate count, whether you include super delegates or not, have Hillary on top.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D
ah the spin of the msm to always put Obama in a good light.
“I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?” Posted by: Linda-in-Wiscosnin
yes, a candidate who controls a majority of the convention delegates can seat them or not at their will (for instance, if Obama gets to the convention with a slim majority and seating Florida/Michigan would switch the victory to Clinton, obviously he would choose to shut out those states) — but if both candidates are short of a controlling majority at convention time, that would trigger a credentials cmte fight unless some other resolution is found
On a lighter note -- Mellencamp isn’t amused at McCain using his songs.
http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/02/04/mellencamp-asks-mccain-to-stop-using-tunes/
Shelia,
the gmail is in the gmail
Blonde-
I just read that New Mexico has 16,870 provisional
ballots that they didn’t start counting until 2:00 PM (EST)
so I don’t think those numbers are in the totals yet.
~G
Just emailed the results to my sis and there were two emails waiting — one from Howard Dean and one from Hillary — mo’ money.
HD talking about McBush. I am just feel that McBush is not going to make it to election time…like I stated yesterday if it is a McBush/Huckster ticket
soon-to-be flatliner and a flat brain
Just can’t shake that feeling.
“Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what’s going on in caucuses that’s different from elections.” — eprof2
-- for all the reasons you go on to cite, eprof2, many party regulars view caucuses as merely measurements of organizing strength/depth of support, etc.
big-state primaries measure appeal across the surface, and both skill sets are needed for a nominee to succeed in November
Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.
Posted by: Rezdog | February 6, 2008 1:50 PM
How about fairness and honesty in the facts surrounding Fla and Mich?
Long before we knew who would come out on top in those states, all the party talking heads in those states said they were sure they’d be seated at the convention and teh Dem party wouldn’t risk alienating so many (millions) of voters. Fla could swing Dem which is huge for 2008.. the party can’t risk angering Fla voters.. and they are angry they may be ignored.
A re vote is a JOKE! on every level. Hillary won Fla, time for people to swallow the truth.
Back a couple months ago there was a statement made by Nancy Pelosi regarding this. Dean too. that their authority ends when the doors to the convention open, and that who ever was in the lead was highly likely to seat the delegates from those 2 states, that alienating people in those states would be a disaster for the dem party.
The dem party f’d up badly in such a harsh penalty, now they must swollow their stupidity and do what’s fair, and that’s to seat those delegates. If I lived in florida where Hillary got more than 800,000 votes, more than any candidate of either party in any state (at the time), I would be infuriated too if my party chose to ignore those votes.
BONBC…biggest case of denial I have seen since Faux News
I believe, I understand the grief cycle guys, but loss is like that , I suppose. Eventually they will get to acceptance. Or maybe not….didn’t Tweetie have a life size photo Grandma Obama sitting in chair next to him yesterday.
Mr. Hardballs!
Thanks for putting a reality check on caucas and primary. I was not understanding until now.
Looks like this year is the year the Baby Boomers get a great taste of a full on everything counts election.
I think that Hillary taking care of business in Mich. and Florida was just good sound political insight. Why would the candidates or the dem party want to turn off support in to important states like those—-Florida in particular.
Obama not taking these states seriously shows poor judgement on his part as well as political immaturity.
If he gets the nomination in the fall he and the democratic party should thank Clinton for holding some good will in these states.
Thank you Bill Maher for giving me a RFLMAO moment.
http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/17538811/dickheads_of_the_year
Patsi, I agree -- scrap the caucus system -- it is ridiculous. Reminds me of village stonings. In all seriousness, I think it is undemocratic and runs counter to the concepts of secret ballot and one person, one vote.
Vacancy rate of homes highest in more than 40 years.
AVerages are 4 -- 5%, but some cities are over 10%
If you have money, now is the time to go house hunting.
new obama whiner oops I mean email is blasting the clinton years.
ohhh the whining he does,
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_directly_attacks_bills_p.php
New Mexico went to a caucus format in 2004. And unlike the Iowa caucus, it is simply a paper ballot. Again, the New Mexico dems ave a really crappy ground game….it was obvious in 2004.
Craig puts up an interesting rationale for the caucus, but I’ve got to agree with Patsi and pogo. This is no way to select candidates for president.
The Mahar description of George Bush is a thing of beauty:
Come on, no list of assholes and fuck-ups could be complete without the Dipshit in Chief. Who will tell this president what everyone but him already knows? The theory of evolution. And the times tables. And where the sun goes at night. And that Iraq is going to be three different countries. And that everyone hates us and we’ve run our military into the ground and the Taliban is back and we still haven’t caught bin Laden and the economy is tanking and we wasted eight years blowing the oil companies while the Earth is melting. We had a pretty nice house when this Cat in the Hat of presidents came in and made the mess of all time. And who’s going to clean it all up
I agree with you Craig—
Obama can’t go against the inclusion of Mich. and Florida because he can’t appear to want to disinfranchise voters in these states. If he did keep the delegates out and win the nomination that way——would they support him in the fall or would they still be angry and vote McCain?
Latest from CNN
http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/candidates/
jamie -- the housing market is a near disaster, but I’d only go house hunting if I thought the housing market has hit bottom -- and I don’t. I’d wait until the first month that reports of housing market rebound surface, then I’d wait another month to see if it holds.
Little Barry may find that the “party insiders” who hold superdelegate status will make up their own minds, and don’t really care what a greenhorn on the national stage thinks of the system. Now how’s this go? get rid of Florida, Michigan, and superdelegates and we can win if we have more pledged delegates going into the convention? Let’s see if he sings the same tune if Hillary has more pledged delegates in August. Any bets on that one?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html
I watched some of the returns last night with the neighbors. She’s for Hillary, he’s for Obama and their daughter, who will be eligible to vote is seriously for Obama. Their daughter, who is really bright, told me that her generation, who has largely been criticized for not being engaged is now finally engaged and it’s primarily because of Obama.
I asked her what would happen if Obama lost. She told me her generation would once again feel disaffected and that the big money machines control everything. I told her of the same feelings I felt when I was her age and people voted for Nixon over McGovern, and encouraged her to stay engaged. She told me that her generation’s payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn’t bail us out.
I told you she was smart!
Who keeps the OFFICIAL count of the delegates?
Pogo,
Oh I know it is going lower even if it isn’t likely to ever get low enough for me, but I’m always mindful of the old dictate: Buy land they aren’t making any more of it.
Before the fall began I saw that the home I bought in 1964 for 21,900 sold for 500,000 last year. Unfortunately for me, the ex sold it for 30,000 and somehow neglected to give me half. drat!
“Who keeps the OFFICIAL count of the delegates?” --Posted by: truebeliever
that’s the fun of this thing, truebeliever — there really is no OFFICIAL count until the first ballot in Denver, or the second, or the third, or …….
dnd lolol I love a smart youngen.
I find my own son to be more engaged too. He said it was time to kick us all to the curb and start again before we REALLY screw it up.
Move over moms and pops. ;0)
dnd
It used to be called the generation gap.
Much of what is going on here, has been going on since the beginning of time…
Are we really any different than our ancestors? We just have more technology. And I can tell you nothing ages me faster than technology.
Craig—
thank you for the answer? Great so we have to listen to all these speculations and opinions until then.
Well that just makes me think that Clinton is even smarter for staying with Mich and Florida.
Craig thanks for the reply about seating delegates. I don’t feel that Obama would be willing to lose MI & FL in the general. On-the-hand, he may lose if they are seated.
Why isn’t there a keeper of the delegates?
We are having a major snow storm up here today………no school, so no tutoring for me……….so, I get to play on the computer today.
jamie, “It’s the land, Katie Scarlett.” They may not be making more of it, but they are putting more of it out there for sale so be patient. It may even get low enough for you. Been on both sides of the story -- bought one house that sold for exactly what I bought it for five years before (of course, with commission, I made less than I paid for it but got the tax advantage of the interest deduction for those 5 years -- probably a wash) and had one once that sold for 20% more than I bought it for 4 MONTHS before. And I know people who have done much better and much worse than I. Nutty markets.
If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I’m for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring) Don’t you think that should he find himself short on delegates and she wins the election, that it would be his responsibility to the party to see that his voters stay engaged?
A “take my ball and go home attitude would be quite unbecoming of any nominee
“The Fix” Winners and Losers column is interesting.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/
trueleliever — pledged delegates are held to voting for the candidates they are sent to represent,(but anything goes if no one wins on the first ballot) — so the numbers of pledged delegates in each state will be fairly hard (and officially tabulated by each state’s elections office). un-pledged superdelegates are a wild card, can do whatever they like
True,
I’d expect nothing less from Both Candidates.
Why can’t BONBC and Faux News rumble like this??
http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/06/tv.conan.stewart.colbert.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
“If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I’m for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring)” truebeliever
I find him reflecting a cult leader. Look at your major cults, church leaders, and horrible state leaders of history. The chanting really scares me. The Beatles had the same affect on the young. Some just find it easier to have someone to think for them, than to think for themselves; like the high school clicks!! Brainwashing doesn’t care about your age, education, background, gender or racial aspects.
Matthew’s just said that if Hillary won, his followers would be heart broken, and she would have to put him on the ticket. IMO that is the worse thing she could do.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/opinion/16krugman.html?pagewanted=all
the myth of the social security insolvency.
If that is the attitude and understanding of young people supporting Obama, then there is even less reason to respect their opinion.
having done the caveats, here’s what i’m using to watch delegates:
our own at CQ; http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=104
and AP’s tracker: http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/campaign_plus/delegate_tracker/
Matt Man on one of my favorite blogs came up with this description of the Dem candidates:
Obama won more states, and Hillary Clinton won the big states. Hillary
They why are you rebutting?
Chickadee,
The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn’t like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.
The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn’t going after young boys.
Apparently dnd does not agree with you
“I don’t think it’s funny. She may be on to something that us boomers should be concerned about.
That said, I think it’s important to keep the young engaged. Us old coots may think they’re a bunch of dreamers, but fresh, untainted ideas are a good thing. Plus they’re the one’s who will be deciding to put us in the old folks home…
Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008 2:56 PM”
boomers the most over insured generation ever
more homehealth care insurance and more insurance
for bridge care etc. No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them
Hi Truebeliever… I think Obama will be a player even if he doesn’t get the nomination. And I think most of his supporters would go with the Democratic nominee. Not everyone though. If Obama gets the nomination, I won’t vote for him (and that’s the first time I’ve ever felt this way). I plugged my nose and voted for Dukakis and again for Kerry. I could explain my reasons, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t have any illusions that it would matter what I vote anyway; I’m just one person. I am also sure that my viewpoint would not be highly indicative of those who call themselves Democrats. Most will eventually stand up for the nominee.
L in W
Well since I don’t see Obama inviting us to any Kool-aid parties or telling us that the aliens are coming to get us I think we are probably ok.
I think I understand what you are talking about—--someone being so charismatic that he could lead us down the wrong road and make us think that it is good for us.
But isn’t that what Bush has done for 7 years. I don’t see him as cult leader. He isn’t smart enough. People are just paying more attention now.
I am from FL, have always been a strong Democrat and will be more than a liitle annoyed if we are not seated, most Floridians feel the same way. If the Dems want to win in Nov, they better start paying attention to us.
Bear LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! You know there is a movement of people who seem to specifically dig chubby men and women. And there is a group that want to get fat. I never understood that. My middle name is DIET… grrr.
I am behind the times, what are kool-aid parties? Are we talking about a Jonestown love fest?
KGC,
“No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them”
Those little snots will soon be in charge of your health care. Lotsa luck if you call them little snots…
Bear —-that’s correct Clinton didn’t stoop to the level of the Moral Minders!
Dnd I agree with you,
Those little snots are the ones fighting the war.
Elaine in Tampa
I feel your pain…and I feel the “uniter” (read BO) needs to show us how ready he is to unite the dem party by demanding all the delegates should be allowed in at the convention. Again, I hate seeing the dem party torn-up when we need to focus on November and beating the repugs.
And I know BO brags about uniting independents and republicans….just not his own party.
“I find him reflecting a cult leader.”
roflmao
Thx Linda, I needed a good laugh over lunch!
http://www.elderlifeplanning.com/idi/geriatrc.htm
no little snot will be in charge of my health care decisions.
and a lot of elderlaw is protecting seniors from the abuse of those little snots.
KGC,
I don’t like to make personal missives but you need to get a fistful of Pamprin and chill the F out. Not all baby boomers are insured up the wazoo as you claim. If that were the case, you wouldn’t see all these blue hairs working part time jobs after they retire in order to get food enough money to cover the medications and other expenses.
I wonder how you expect people to take your opinions seriously when all you do is act like a pissed off monkey, throwing handfuls of your shit at passersby at the zoo…
All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won’t exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won’t leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else…
Yes, Obama has been more of a divisive candidate the last few days in my eyes. He does need to show some unity.
All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won’t exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won’t leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else…
that;s bullshit -- that’s all you heard from Republicans not democrats. get a grip.
Try facts
and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500…I doubt it will be more than 10 years…odd are you will live 10 years beyond that point…you better pray the snot nose kids keep working to support your ass…
Truebeliever….
Sorry, I’m feeling the Unity….
and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500
I have it we all get it in the mail every year
and it will be quite a while before I get out everything I paid in …
Brain in NYC
Be careful about embracing the youth under the age of 18…you might get arrested.
I will feel more unity when I find out that he has stopped saying that Hillary’s supporters would support him, but that it would not be the other way around. I have heard him say that several times.
HEY YOU LITTLE SNOTS! GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!
Sheila’
Thanks for the support for FL.. We dems do have a penchant for screwing up our chances. BO9the Uniter) is starting to show his real self and the fellow has some teeth.
At least that is what he comments have meant to me
HEY YOU LITTLE SNOTS! GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!
Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008 3:52 PM
I’m thinking of having a yard sign made.
KGC,
You are an idiot if you forget all the ridicule that Al Gore took because of the Social Security lock box. You have clearly taken the Bush administrations orwellian course on revisionist history.
I swear to god it is easier to reason with a Klansman with a torch in his hand than it is with you…how I long for the days of Fritz…he was vile and rude yet he was much less bitter than you.
I don’t know what your source of bitterness is but I suggest you take a day off your high horse and go volunteer to help the some homeless veterans. They took a bullet and they were willing to die for their country. They have been ignored since that service and they are less bitter than you…
Obama continues with his velvet tongue to get away with saying anything he wants to say, I agree that he says he can win her voters but he doesn’t thinke she can win his supportes. NOOOO not if he is unwilling to encourage them to support her.
Buchana siad it last night there is a underlying sexism and rascism… Why cant we deal with this.
Elaine, I am of the opinion that Howie’s turning the issue over to a credentials committee not controled by him allows the party to fix it and preserve what little face Howie still has. I said when he became party chair that it was a mistake and he wasn fit for the position . I was right and believe that the ridiculous overreaching by trying to strip FL and MI of thier delegates, along with his bowing to pressure to preserve the undue influence IA & NH party officials demand in the nominating process that in a rational world would leave them as bit players without lines confirmed my position re: Howie as party chair being a huge mistake (rivalled only by making Harry Reid the Senate Majority Leader).
Bear….get a mirror…look at it…now you see who sounds very bitter.
All Al Gore was doing was responding to the Bush plan
if anyone needs to get a grip it’s you
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Al_Gore_Social_Security.htm
This just in….BO’s next rally is being held in Waco.
I’ve heard it all
kc, you can borrow that sign from McCain.
elaine--
that’s what I mean. That is what I have noticed in the past few days. Me-- I am a democrat , I will vote for our candidate in the fall—-but alot of people may not feel that way if they are offended too much
You are on target pogo. I am a strong supporter of HRC, but if BO gets the nomination, we should push her for Senate Majority Leader. It would mean the Messiah president would have to deal with her and we might get a decent health Care Plan, a reasoned withdrawal from Iraq, a stimulus package that meets the needs of the Americans in trouble and she would be the main mediator and conciliatory force in the Senate.
Harry Reid—-
now there is a nutless wonder
Bear, isn’t it so that Social Security would be solvent if the damn politicians didn’t raid the fund for other purposes?
Elain
I do have to admit , when it comes to sexism and racism Buchanan is an expert. ;-0
Jack
I have been talking to some serious party leaders in FL, they are disgusted with HD and the party establishment.
It is too bad, but we have been badly demeaned, ignored and stuffed in a corner. They robbed Floridians of their right to be part of a possible historic election.
Speaking of interesting political plays.. like him or not, John McCain and his supporters really did a number on Romney who was expecting to win in WV (?) and when the McCain people realized they weren’t going to win, they switched over to Huckabee. Dirty as hell politics, but there was some definite savvy in that decision.
BO was just on CNN saying the same thing again about how he will get Hillary’s vote. Well not mine.
Hillary is having a news conference w/in the hour.
Elaine--
I believe it will all end up ok. Smarter heads will prevail. Tell them to hang in there.
Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?
Whatever is good for the Obama.
unlikely_burrito (I love your name and I have a fine wine to go with your name)
BO doesn’t deal with anything last century….and I think his dissing of the past has backed him into a corner.
I know Brain and Warren tell me how brilliant he is (read the book), but to me he really seem stupid by his stance. Millenium Boy ignores the past.
truebeliever,
we have been patient, we have no tother choice. Until recently I have beleived that all would end up ok, I am concerned as BO gets more strength FL loses at the convention. Then all will come running for money. I maxxed out this time, thye willl not be getting my dough.
I agree with unlikely_burrito that super delegates may end up being in trouble also.
Well i don’t think any state should have a monopoly of “first vote” in the Presidential primary, like Iowa and NH have. It’s just not democratic. And states that want an earlier role in the process should not be penalized… at least the people of those states should not be penalized. It’s late, so I don’t know if this made total sense.
And I want everyone to know that I understand how sensitive we all are and by my use of “boy” as in Millenium Boy was not a racial slur. It was intended to show his youthfulness and inexperience. Perhaps, Millenium Juvenile would have been a better moniker.
Blonde wino…
I took a short vacation from the blog just as you came barreling on…..
I want to say “Howdy”….. I’m in NH…. have been to NM several times and absolutely love your state….
I also love wine and was curious what your favorite(s) is/are…..
BJ….. are you the BJ from around Las Vegas that was on this blog when Craig first started it?…
and Obama has yet to state that people who don’t vote for him are not racist as the media tends to suggest….. this one thing still upsets me…..
well… that… and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin….
GO DEMOCRATS!
Hmmmm………..
Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?
Whatever is good for the Obama.
Posted by: unlikely_burrito | February 6, 2008 4:09 PM
I can’t find it anywhere, where OBama wants to get rid of Super Delegates.
can you provide your source please?
BONBC discussing dem ballot problems….
EuroTom….
I’m from NH and even I have to agree with you about our insistence on going first….. it’s not about democracy…. it’s about $$$$$…..
this state makes a lot of money going first…. but it’s time for the gravy train to end and let other states have an early say…..
the one thing we may all be able to agree upon is that the system we use to get candidates nominated by the parties appears to be broken….
What a mess. The DNC should step up now! and make it clear what is going to be done with Michigan and Florida, and they should educate the public about the Super- Delegates.
This will deflect it from becoming a issue that OBAMA-boy pouts about to his loyal followers. If OB makes this an issue, and the DNC doesn’t take control the party in-fighting will reach historic levels.
I can see the OB camp blaming the DNC rules on the Clinton Machine….and all the baby-Obama’s will throw little fits.
RR
My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale — best old vine. It is part of my health care program.
My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir — north island.
And they are best drunk in New Mexico…which reminds me I need to check the results again.
unlikely_burrito
Again can you post your source that Obama is against Super Delegates?
Unless you do, I will consider you a Republican Troll… ;0)
Before some of you partisans out there get too stupid.
A reminder of what this election is about.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/26569.html
I never thought in my life time we would talk about torture being the official policy of this nation.
Jack
Shelia, it was a question.
Obama wins caucuses with Liberal activists in mostly Red States. This sytem should be scrapped. That is a sure ticket for an Obama November victory. Florida and Michigan will be counted and last night was a big loss for BO. I can point to so many things that reflect his poor judgment. NY Independents couldn’t vote and would have gone for Hillary if allowed. Bill’s popularity it quite high and Obama produced the black white issue that has caused him problems nationally.
Biggest problem is that people are growing tired with the vague plaititudes and borrowed rhetoric of BO. Economy and Healthcare seem to go for Hillary. Foreign Policy despite Iraq still favors a more centrist view on a national stage. Immigration, education, vets and energy also trend towards Hillary. I expect Obama breaking his promise and going after Hillary on a personal level again. Hillary needs to watch Texas, Penn and Ohio and keep the pressure to include Florida and Michigan.
The writing is on the wall and the only reason that I say this is to counter the crap spilling from my TV. Some people I met want Hillary just to beat up the sexists, revisionaries, biased and unprofessional pundits and polsters (Zogby is a beaut) who have spouted non-stop for a year. They are the immovable force that should be bitch-slapped by the irresistable force of mainstream Democrats. And Democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don’t want a woman President, not a tough one at least. Perhaps if Jessica Simpson ran they might vote for her.
Thank you Burrito. ;0)
Forget about torture, WJ
I have real news…just in from David Shuster…Britiney is out!
CIA director acknowledges use of waterboarding……
LOL Well Jack! its about darn time! I wonder if any of it will pulse the radar screen!
“She told me that her generation’s payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn’t bail us out.”
I’m sure glad I raised my children to have a moral compass.
Maxtrue, you can see just from this forum that “democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be”. The breadth and scope of sexism from some of the top posting “stars” in here does confound me.
On the other hand, a lot of men posting here are feminists and they understand that gender politics is as legitimate and as important as any other quest for equality in a pretty unequal world.
RR
Burrito reminds me of one of the big fiesta’s here in southern Ne Mexico…The Whole Enchilada Fiesta. We make a large enchilada (biggest in the world according to Guiness) and most of the town shows up to have a piece.
http://www.enchiladafiesta.com/
RR…Oh, that vibrating red pepper with the sombrero is “Twefie.”
“The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn’t like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.
The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn’t going after young boys.”
Oh my GAWD! Bear I almost fell off my chair laughing.
Shelia,
i think peeps starting this line of ?? referring to this Huffpo article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html
haah! Linda, that would be refreshing!
Re: Bri Bri, he seems insistent on calling me a “racist”, just like the Obama supporters did to Bill Clinton when he observed that South Carolina would most probably go to BHO, and pointed out that Jesse Jackson carried the state’s democratic votes.
Oh and not that I have to prove my credentials to Bri Bri or his hapless friends, but I was also a DELEGATE for Mr. Jackson and one of the founding members of the Thurston County Rainbow Coalition back in 1988.
Carry on name callers!
Feel good link and cute shoes.
The photos from the trip are fantastic. Peace
http://www.tomsshoes.com
Here you go Linda,
Oprah gave to the Obama campaign last year.
http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_donations/Oprah_Winfrey.php
here is Caroline Kennedy
http://www.newsmeat.com/celebrity_political_donations/Caroline_Kennedy.php
That’s weird. Caroline is all for Obama but she gave the same amount to Hillary? Does UNCLE TEDDY really have that much influence on her?
I am beginning to believe my black pal down at Vandy was right when he said he was concerned about white agitators calling everyone racist who said anything at all about Obama. He said that in the end the ones crying racism would turn Obama into the affirmative action candidate. This guy, by the way, is a very sharp political type.
A question I would like the candidates to answer but nobody will ask it.
If you are President and proof is brought to you that officials the current administration approved of war crimes, would you prosecute the offenders and how ?
Jack
Here’s Teddy
He didn’t donate to Obama
http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Ted_Kennedy.php
Max commented--”And Democratic men aren’t the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don’t want a woman President, not a tough one at least”.
Correct—many men are intimidated by strong, independent women. Yes—it exists in this thread.
Politico’s Ben Smith posted about Obama’s view of superdelegates. This is what Huffpoo put up on it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html
I’m sure Politico has more, but I have to run.
So here is Obamas Donor list and how much.
I couldn’t find any name even familiar with Rezco or Rezko
http://www.newsmeat.com/campaign_contributions_to_politicians/donor_list.php?candidate_id=P80003338&li=R
So where does the 32 million come from?
Thanks for the sites Sheila.
Blonde wino….
thanks for all that info….
I’ve never been to Las Cruces….. I should remedy that fact soon….
my hubby, Rick, fell in love with green chiles on our first visit to your state 12 yrs ago….. he still orders them by the case….
I am a hand weaver….. we went to Indian Market in Santa Fe….. I saw Navajo weavings so beautiful that they made me cry…..
I now have several good friends that live there….. one is in Santa Fe and one in your neck of the woods….. in a little town I can’t remember off the top of my head….. he’s a jeweler and went in search of a town where he and his wife could make their jewelry and afford to buy a house….. he says they love living near the Mexican border…..
and just to make it fair,
Here is Clinton’s public record of donations.
http://www.newsmeat.com/campaign_contributions_to_politicians/donor_list.php?candidate_id=P00003392
Blonde wino,
“My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale — best old vine. It is part of my health care program.
My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir — north island”
I once asked a wine afficianado friend what was her favorite wine. Her response: “whatever the one that’s in front of me.”
Oprah is cheap. Unless there is more that she provided this year that pumed up that January number.
Renee
“and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin….”
We can be irritated together. She stepped on one of my last nerves even before her husband did.
Unlikey_bee… Oprah has given what could be considered “in-kind” donations… by actively campaigning for BHO. Is there a limit on how much she can contribute? Lord knows she’s got the money.
Linda……common. Small doners like me.
I’m a small doner. I’ve been donating a little each month. Just to be completely honest.
Pogo
Thank you for the Huffpo post about Super delegates and BO. Sheila now has an answer from burrito’s question.
tome and burrito,
That is the limit for the Primary. Then in the General, everyone can donate again.
I used to donate to campaigns til I read the millions Tad Devine, Bob Shrum and their partner pocketed for their expert advise and managing John Kerry’s campaign. If the consultants each get MILLIONS, I think the every day working woman or man shouldn’t be asked to contribute to such costs.
JmHO .. and really goodnight…
xoxoxoxoxo
Yes thanks Pogo,
But Wino, it wasn’t my question, it was Burritos. ;0)
Here burrito;
Obama, at his Chicago press conference just now, lays out his path to the nomination, which depends first on having a majority of pledged delegates.
“If this contest comes down to superdelegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those superdelegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination,” he said.
“The argument we would be making to superdelegates is, if we come into the convention with more pledged delegates then i think we can make a very strong argument that our constituencies have spoken and I think that’s going to be pretty improtant when it comes to the general election,” he says.
BW
re. huffpo article
Thats just Obama working the refs , Smart politics IMO
Jack
Small doner here. I like to donate especially after something MSM says to tick me off. I admit, when they ask, I usually provide some amount.
I might catch up with Oprah, since is such a long campainge.
Re : super Delagates/ Mich / Fla.
Thank you for the insight. I understand, but I also can see where it will, or it can, get very confrontational if the message presented is that it “isn’t fair”
Most voters can deal with the contest if it is precieved as fair.
Thanks Sheila…regarding the post sometimes I drink “whatever the one that’s in front of me.”
I am a lazy blogger sometimes.
obama is trying to change the rules about super delagates,,,,,,,,,but dosnt want fla and mich to be seated …..what a hypocrite
Zumper
I toast you, now you get it.
why is the media still trying to spin an obama victory….they know the clinton camp conceded the caucus states to obama because most of those states wont be in dem corner in nov…obama has only won 2 significant states his own and conn ..why cant the media just be honest for once..(fat chanch)….by the way she won the most gelagates and has a 70 delagate lead but the media was trying to change the math but math is math ….THE MEDIA LOST LAST NIGHT and thats what im the most happy about
——————————————————————————--
thanks blonde
DND, been out doing errands this afternoon. Thanks for the insights into CO caucuses. Just as I thought, party regulars and the highly motivated. CO probably didn’t see too many Hispanic and minority participants. Comparing CO with CA and AZ and you can see the difference between the two systems. Craig says the two systems sharpen the skills of the candidates and their strategists. Could be, but after this primary season I’m say, dump the caucuses and let the party people vote in the closed primary systems. Now there is another topic for another time: open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic?
Very Welcome Blonde,
eprof2
If New Mexico can ever finish counting, we may have one more caucus to point to regarding your point.
Still not done.
Gentle thoughts for today
Birds of a feather flock together and crap on your car.
************************************************************
When I’m feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the
neighbor’s dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************************************
A penny saved is a government oversight.
************************************************************
The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time,
but also to leave unsaid, the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
blondie
new mexico is splitting the delagates 13 13 no mater who wins
Burritto , The unfair argument is going to be used by the looser if it comes down to the super delegates. *shrug* That is the way the system is designed,”unfair”
just like last night where you could win 60 to 40 and come out even in the delegate count.
I think it is about time to bring this system into the modern world. We are not riding to the convention on horseback any more.
Jack
Okay, Craig…I am ready to get all of the Florida and Michigan delegates onto the family truckster and drive to Opralamedy Land to get this delegate thing straightened out once and for all.
good post jack
this democrat system sucks…..so does howard dean….there should be only primaries and at least half winner take …….these candidates have a general election to fight for sgsinst the GOP
My favorite wine…
Fat bastard
http://www.fatbastardwine.com/our-wines.php
Jack -- it’s drivin’ me to drink.
LL
Love the hippo and have had a few bottles, myself.
Big Snow Storm here to Corey!
EProf
“open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic? ”
More and more people are going the “Decline To State” route (which should probably be standardized in some way since some people register “Independent” not realizing that in some states that is a particular party)
There is much less party loyalty but there could be extreme interest in one part or another during a given election that would attract these middle of the road types.
I would go for an open primary that allows the “decline” types to pick a party on primary or caucus day. The more I think about the less I like the caucus system.
Wino,
My favs,
Rancho Zabaco Red Zin Juicy!
Smoking Loon Merlot Yummy and cheap. ;0)
Flowers Pinot Noir Actually romantic and flowery.
… It goes like this, if a Michigan or Florida delegate votes at the convention and no one’s there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Good Catch Jamie. ;0)
Patsi, I was logging off when I read what you wrote. I was stunned! I had to find out who wrote that. Colleen? I don’t know if I know her. She says I have a crush?!!! LOL… uhhhhh… NO! Why I outta….
If it wasn’t so insulting, it would be really funny.
… well maybe Craig! LOL… 
I really don’t know what to say… I can assure you.. if I stand up to someone whom I perceive to be a bully, it isn’t a “crush” or an “amorous” thought that motivates me.
Anyway, LOL !!!!! I cannot think of anything cogent to say.
Well, I like you Patsi and I like Jamie, and Pogo, and Lardass Liberal, Blonde Wino, Oregon Democrat, and Sheila (even though she does seem to be preaching at me about my anti-Bri Bri intereactions) and Craig Crawford. I can assure all of you that I don’t have an crush on any of you
I love Obama saying, “Clinton has a well honed machine built over 20 years”.
Doesn’t he think the Kennedy machine is enough to put the fix in?
He is so damn phony.
Jamie
I toast to you, too. I think the guy is a phony,too. And Romney usually get that brand from the media.
My favorite saying…
“Practice what you preach” 8>{)
Now Jamie,
I just heard Clinton compliment Obama and then give him a shove too…..really., its politics! :0)
oh and I forgot Rebellious Renee, and I like Blonde Wino too… Whiskey Jack has great things to say and Nash is clever as can be… And I like whoever it was that was praising Dolly Parton’s new music. That’s a person of great taste,
Jamie, it just goes to show that the “new politics” Obama talked so eloquently about in 2004 has quickly been replaced by the usual “attack and divide” politics. High minded stuff, unless your poll numbers stay in the the toilet.
Very funny TM title! *L*
Competing with Craig and on opposite is Michael Moore on Larry King, CNN.
Larry King repeats here but Abrams doesn’t. So Craig you’ll be the early one and Michael the late one as I’m interested in what ya both have to say.
tt
EuroTom
Brain from NYC can’t post right now, he is being questioned by the police for “embracing a youth under the age of 16″
“Clinton compliment Obama and then give him a shove ”
But she smiles when she says something nice about him. He practically puts his thumb in his mouth and sulks when he tries to say something nice about her.
you guys are bad. I need to sleep and I find this place so entertaining. To be serious, I am mostly enjoying it here. I will be suffering in the morning and I have 3 orders coming in… grrrr. xoxoxoxoxox
I find the Ted Kennedy snob by voters very interesting. Clout is changing by the powers that be it seems.
tt
Sheila
I toast to you, too, as you like variety in your diet. Nice selections.
Only in your tainted eyes Jamie. You think he’s snarky and a jerkand I see an honest man.
I can take just about any judgement but this type.
There was a great article in Boston.com about when Mitt Romney was running against Ted Kennedy, none other than President Clinton and First Lady Hillary Clinton campaigned tiredlessly for his re-election.
The article is called “A Loss for Kennedy” Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/
Ted Kennedy sure knows how NOT to stand by his friends.
your thoughts?
Wow…just found a potato chip by my chair…how did I miss that cleaning-up the wine spill last night?
Snarky yes. Jerk no.
Blonde LOL… I have found Italian wines to be really nice at the end of a long work day. I sell wines at my gas station / shop.
Tom,
I think Ted Kennedy is a grown man who has made a very important decision. One for his own morals. I am aware that he took a long time to do this. He informed the Clintons before he did it.
And so I think he was honorable.
Back in 1994, Kennedy was suddenly and shockingly vulnerable to a challenge from a rich, smart Republican named Mitt Romney. On the defense in his first real political fight in decades, Kennedy wrapped himself “in President Clinton’s mantle,” the Globe reported in June 1994. “I am honored to stand with him, day after day, week after week, month after month, in our fight for jobs, economic justice, and progress on the great issues like health reform,” Kennedy told delegates to that year’s Democratic state convention.
from the article “A Loss for Ted Kennedy”
The article is called “A Loss for Kennedy” Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/
Tucker is such a dooffess!
But Sheila, he didn’t just make an endorsement…. he tried to skewer them. Is this the behaviour of a principled man?
Looks like KO is down.
“Sorry, ‘www.keitholbermann.org’ does not exist or is not available”
http://keitholbermann.org/forum
tt
Ok I really admired Heath Ledger, and I know “This Just In” is joking, but… it doesn’t feel right.
…..what planet am I on then. I never heard any skewering or I would have been mad.
I heard about his warning to Bill.
I heard Kennedy excited about the message.
But He Never Skewered the Clintons
In what may be Obama’s most direct and aggressive criticism of Bill Clinton’s presidency yet, the Obama campaign dropped a new mailer just before Super Tuesday that blasts “the Clintons” for wreaking massive losses on the Democratic party throughout the 1990s.
Obama has already taken direct aim at the Clinton presidency, arguing in a widely-discussed interview that the GOP was the “party of ideas” during the last decade and a half. This mailer represents more direct criticism of Bill, as well as an overt effort to tie Hillary to the Dem losses suffered under his Presidency — and raise the specter of more Dem losses under a Hillary one. http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_directly_attacks_bills_p.php
Sheila was right yesterday when she said that the Obama supporters don’t want to say anything because the majority here are Hillary supporters and nothing they can say is even considered.
Now I see where Barack’s wife is being blasted for something she said. IIRC when being interviewed and ask what she would do {and this was before any primaries} if she was to lose she said she wasn’t going to lose. When ask but what if you do lose she said she’s never thought about it because she wasn’t going to lose. Sure sounds arrogant to me.
So let me say this, a newbie on the blog here {by new I mean someone who hasn’t been here for as long as some of us} made a comment about the media. And there are a lot of comments about the media lately can also apply here.
Everyone knocks Obama saying he’s a good orator, but gives no specifics on the issues or there not as good as Hillary. He gives a good speech but has no experience. He says he’s going to change the way Washington works, but don’t get specific enough.
On the Hillary side she also gives a good speech, however she does not inspire anyone. She gives specifics and they really sound so much better than what Obama gives. She has over thirty years experience and Obama doesn’t have enough experience.
So now let me say what was said on another thread by Gordo.
If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.
This works both ways. On one hand you all agree on what I have said about Obama, but you don’t believe what he says.
Its not good enough for you.
On Hillary you agree that she gives a good speech, but not as good as Obama. She has substance and lots of specifics on the issues that sound really good, a lot better than Obama. So is it too good to be true?
You have made up your minds and no matter what anyone who supports Obama says you dismiss and belittle his messages so I can understand why Obama supporters do not want to engage anyone on why he is the right person for the Presidency of The United States.
And to the person who suggested he was a cult leader who would lead you to commit suicide because he inspires people and offers them hope of restoring our Constitution and Country you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I for one am glad that Jesus was a cult leader. After all he inspired a lot of people only he didn’t ask them to drink the kool aide.
I don’t comment hear as much as I use to do and I only argued and bashed two people here in all the years I have been a family member of Craig’s and the rest of those regulars.
Those two people were SnowFlake Blue Fritz and Fry. Now I see a lot of that since this is a very important election for our country.
I think that I’ll just lurk from now on and be silent, besides its getting real hard here to keep up since now I’m seeing over four hundred comments on the last thread and this one.
By the way, I don’t hate Hillary and feel that she would be better off in the Senate as Majority Leader than that spineless Harry Reid. At least she could maybe hold the Democrats together and not cave in all the time like Reid does.
I also don’t expect her to make the changes needed to give us are country back. She is part of the problem and not part of the solution. No matter what you think her thirty years experience makes it difficult if not impossible to make the changes necessary that are needed.
As to whether or not the new young voters that Obama brought into the party may feel that there voices still don’t count and stay at home. So even though Hillary supporters may vote for Obama they may not vote for Hillary.
I will vote for her if she the nominee, however I’ll bite my tongue and hold my nose when I do.
Well I’m done ranting. Good luck to all of you and may none of us regret our decision when the election is over.
Take care and…
God Bless.
Sheila…Ted Kennedy, morals?
Like I said, he’ll drive off that bridge when he gets there!
Re: Tucker doofessness-
And Lanny Davis wipes the floor with him…again! Why does he keep having him on ?
EuroTom
I agree 8>{)
Sheila , you see doofess when you look at Tucker…I see a gentle light-hearted soul.
Just under 6″ of snow here so far. About 7″ total by midnight. Do I call in to work and stay off the roads , eventhough I live in town???
Ok guys I am going to bed really. Thanks for the chat, the comedy, and the drama. Hope I helped stir up the mix.
Now I get only 5 hours sleep… I’m too old for this stuff
xoxoxoxox
I couldn’t survive on only 5 hours of sleep per night
Now I am getting started on the Kennedys Myth and the way I feel expresses how the folks in California and Massachusetts voted. Who cares what the Kennedy’s think? They are not a sqeaky clean klan.
The Kennedy had their beginnings in boot legging and by the the time they ended-up in the White House…it was Camelot. And after Jack was assasinated, Jackie shows-up naked in Greece and marries Aristotle O. And we treat Caroline Kennedy like a princess….geez. Maybe the American peeps are finally getting smarter…hold that thought.
This thread is actually about what is your
a-p
You are taking things to serious and need to lighten-up. For 8 years we have been under the stranglehold of GWB and we have been terrorized by security alerts, wire tapping and some pretty awful pictures of torture.
Let’s look at the puppies..instead.
http://www.winedogs.com/
JE has 26 delegates…less than MI or FL should have.
Karolenna
The last time I looked he had 26. Even though he has quit the campaign, he has not released them. If he chooses to endorse someone, courtesy would usually have them follow his lead for at least the first ballot at the convention, though they would not be absolutely obligated to do so. That gives him some leverage to bargain with the viable candidates.
After the first ballot, they are free agents and can cut their own deals.
Obama went to Florida and said he would seat the delegation. Why has he changed his mind.
And now he wants to change the rules about super delegates.
Obama is the one with the problem keeping his word
If anyone of you thinks that the educated white male will vote for HRC as they did for Obama, I believe you are completely wrong. They will either not vote, as I won
Craig what s up on the senate floor today that obama had to be led away by the arm out of the room by sen kerry after hillary was talking to sen kennedy.
agree with Jack Nicholson who says
LL
It was I who suggested (tongue in cheek — and please do not take that the wrong way, a-p) that Brain was being questioned by the police for “embracing a youth under 16.” It was a play on words, probably not really funny, but was a lot of fun to type. Like I said, we have been so miserable for years under GWB, we need to have some harmless fun.
funny chick
Thanks for the chat…have to run…will try to catch Craig on Dan’s show. Dan is still easy on the stomach.
Anon-paranoid @ 6:10 pm,
Rant all you want because you have some good things to say. I agree with you on most of your comments. I have always said that HRC would best serve this country in the Senate. I even have thought that Obama may ask her to be Secretary of State, then all that traveling around the world and talking with so many leaders she has bragged about would come into play for her.
She should have kept some of the money she spent on her speaking coach, because I don
anon-p,
I miss ya. Your opinions are well thought out and respected here by those of us who’ve been here for a while. If some want to snark at you, f#*k ‘em. They’ll probably move on soon enough.
I think it’s beyond just “bugging” you. I think people recognize these facial expressions and temperments, and it reminds them of people they have dealt with in real life.
If it walks like a duck….. on and on
Experience is the teacher, and many women have a truly remarkable “gut” feeling intuition when they watch people. In my experience they are usually correct or at least very close.
I’ll get slammed for this, but I do not think “most” men that same intense level of intuition.
disclaimer: not meant to enrage or upset or hurt anyones feeling….
Karolenna
” I don
Karolenna commented at 6:52 “She should have kept some of the money she spent on her speaking coach, because I don
My brother was accused of having sex with underage girls and he didn’t think that was funny. It was posted on a blog and he is suing them for it.
Even in jest its not funny.
As far as I know gays are not pedophiles, whereas straight men are more likely to be pedophiles.
And for the person that said someone told them that Bill Clinton hurt the Democratic Party here is a link that tells the loses to the Party while Bill was President.
I personally thought Bill was a good President, but these figures don’t lie. Read the full article.
http://blogs.salon.com/0002255/2008/01/28.html#a1929
Signing off.
Holy crap -- anon_p -
Jamie: I want to back up what you said about Hillary being very warm in person. I attended rallies for all of the candidates multiple times over the last year. I saw Hillary about 6 times and Obama 3 or 4 (would have been once more but he did not attend the Cancer Forum.)
Hillary is VERY warm in person. When she shakes your hand she stops, looks you in the eye, pauses and greets you. She really makes a connection.
To the contrary, when I had Obama sign my book he did not look at me, was speaking to other people and just aimlessly signing things as he walked, more like a celebrity walk of the red carpet. I have seen this repeated on the news many times.
This did not make a difference in my vote, but it directly addresses the issue Karolenna brings up so I wanted to respond to it.
The other person who is lovely in person is Bill Richardson. He has solid ideas as well. I was sorry to see he never got any traction.
Hi Anon-P
Good to see you again buddy!
Bill Clinton is the same way, warm and kind to those he meets.
The word “respectful” also comes to mind.
Burrito: Yes, very true. I saw him three times in the last year and he is respectful and commanding in person. However, I did not feel he overpowered Hillary as some have pointed out. I actually thought they complemented each other very well. She has a very different style than he does: practical, nurturing, policy wonk-ish. I am drawn to this (not sure what this says about me?!) and this is probably why I liked Richardson as well.
Hi Sheila…
I’m not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me. Don’t take that wrong though. I really like those whom I know from the beginning, however truth be told its like my grandfather told me when I was so much younger than today.
Never talk Religion or Politics because you will end up losing friends if their views differ from yours. Truer words were never spoken.
God Bless.
I understand Sweetie,
It will bet better someday and we will be here. I will miss you buddy!
Howard Dean today:
f there is no nominee selected by his predicted mid-spring date, or by Puerto Rico’s June vote
I know that I am new to the blog and naive, but I personally hope for a Clinton/Obama ticket. I feel that the longer this campaign continues, the more divided the party will become and the only way to heal is to unite and conquer.
burrito,
“Bill Clinton is the same way, warm and kind to those he meets. The word “respectful” also comes to mind.”
You betcha. Just ask Monica. Or Paula. Or Gennifer. Or….
Talk to those in the inner circle. He has a hair-trigger temper.
But he is the consummate salesman. That is clear.
Nobody likes seedy innuendo and to be told that you do this, you are this, blah blah blah when you are not and that includes Hillary Clinton. Hurts.
Interesting move by Dean to get everyone to focus on the idea of not self destructing.
Anon…
I’m joining you in checking out for awhile, but I hope we’ll both be back once sanity and cooler heads have prevailed on this blog. I’ll still be lurking, but it’s no longer worth it to come here every day to read the same diatribe over and over, or to watch as people I previously respected call each other -- and the presidential candidates -- names, and try to rip each other apart.
To those of you’ve who’ve managed to retain your dignity and to treat others with respect -- and you know who you are! -- thank you!
Don’t bash Hillary and don’t bash Obama and all will be okay here.
“I’m not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me”
Oh Good God. Anon you’ve become, uh, paranoid. You say some of the damndest things then immediately boo-hoo when questioned. And PLEASE stop injecting Jesus into this dialogue.
It’s time for the healing to start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCXZczTQXo
speaking of really bad tempers
It cites such alleged losses of temper as:
I just saw a report on McCain’s voting record. Found it interesting. We know all about Hillary’s voting records, but what about Obama’s. All I know for sure is he voted No on the war vote. Why is the media giving this guy a free ride. Let’s here some more information on him.
Tweety just compared the choice between HRC and BO to “Sophie’s Choice.”
Find it vedaryl,
its public info.
Use to be we could all debate our differences here and still respect and enjoy each other. Now it’s dominated with bile that contributes nothing to the discussion. I’m with 9/11, anon-p and harborwoman. See ya.
KC, and then he said “of course not that bad”.
because he couldn’t figure out who was playing the nazis
I want the media to treating him the same way everyone else is being treated. They could of done the same report on him as they did on McCain. No more free ride, it’s gone on long enough. What’s fair is fair. Maybe he will do even better in the rest of the races. I don’t want dirt on him. We all don’t have computers, some depend on the media to do their jobs.
dnd,
Its with a heavy heart to see you go. But I DO understand. Remember things swing both ways and this pendulum may swing back to the fine days of this blog!
Is Obama Being Hurt By MSNBC And His Other Media Worshippers
Indeed. As Crawford points out, last night Tom Brokaw went on MSNBC and chastised his colleagues for getting so far ahead of themselves.
It’s about time, it took an old pro to wake up and smell the roses.
VaDaryl
“No on the war vote.” He never voted on it. He wasn’t in the Senate at the time. He spoke out against the war at the time. When asked about that specific piece of legislation, he has said he doesn’t know how he would have voted.
OK, Press him on that issue. What do you mean I am not sure what I would of done. You said on the first day the new Pres has to make the right decision.
Corey
honest criticism and being called on your criticism in a polite manner is not bashing. IMO None of the candidates are perfect and there is room to point out the flaws in all of them. I have read little bashing in here, I have how ever read the same criticisms repeated ad nausium about both democratic candidates. Some of them becoming very outdated. I mthink Obama has proven he can take a hit from anyone. I think HRC has proven she can draw votes from a broad spectrum of the American people and will not hurt the down ticket candidates. Just two I’ve read at least once in the last hour.
Jack
He was the one who said he didn’t know for sure how he would have voted. No one has ever pushed him on it. They just take the speech he made opposing the war at face value. Since entering the Senate, his voting record has been almost identical to Senator Clinton.
vadaryl,
I really am tired of this babysitting….if you want your info, go on to the Obama website where it is public information.
Or haven’t looked, but its probably on his senate website…..because again…..its public information.
now if you really want to get snippy, I indeed, remember when his voting record was vetted by everybody and their mother in in January of 2007. If you didn’t catch it then, go look for it. Its public information.
Also why was he so low keyed in his press conference today. He almost put me to sleep. Great idea to have one but have some energy. I don’t think he needed to be over excited but that was not one of his best moments. He’s getting better, but this was not one of his best moments.
Horsey Cartoon on Super Tuesday
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?ID=1706
It’s not babysitting for people who don’t have access to info like we do. Millions of people don’t have computers but depend on MSNBC, CNN, and FOX for their info. Also Time, Newsweek and their local paper. Yes I missed Jan 2007 reports. But tonight I got a handful of info on McCain, on Obama how great his movement has been going.
Jack , what I meant was that people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Hillary and people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Obama.
Hi everyone…
As an experiment, I’d suggest that you all stay off the blog for a full day (as I have today) and then go back and read the full thread. Some of the taunting and dissing here is totally 3rd Grade playground crapola. Devalues the blog. Makes for lousy reading.
Makes me want to dig out my old “Dick, Jane and Sally” reading primers from my mid-60s childhood. At least those stories had a point.
We’re all better than this.
Later.
As bad as Right Wing Radio has been on trashing McCain to help Mitt, at least they are bringing up some issues.
Oh and.. Thank you and good night sweet Lardass Prince!
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments
Sheila said,
“if you want your info, go on to the Obama website”
What ? You mean like have an informed opinion?
Radical, Sheila , simply radical.
That would put most blogs out of business, not to mention what it might do to cable news.
lol reminds me of when I got troll rated for a week on TPM cafe.
My comment “It is called google use it!”
Jack
Here is the “Spike Math” version of the DEMOCRATIC Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.
The counts are only those of “hard pledged” delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary.
It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become “hard pledged” until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates.
http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf
The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.
Pre-February 5th Delegates
Clinton:……….21
Obama:………34
Edwards:……12
February 5 Delegates
Clinton:……….754
Obama:………721
Subtotal: January 3 -- February results
Clinton:……….775
Obama:………755
Edwards………12
Fl/MI Delegates
Clinton:……….201
Obama:………130
Edwards………11
PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Clinton:……….976
Obama:………885
Edwards……….23
dnd….do you think that’s wise?
Vadaryl:
If you took of your Clinton-coloered glasses -- you might see his press conference differently.
Perhaps even gracious as opposed to some NY politician at the Giants parade whooping it up like a pep rally.
Jack:
I would hardly call the tone in here “polite” and nor shoud it be. Of course respecting the poster -- if not their points -- is always necessary.
Here is the “Spike Math” version of the REPUBLICAN Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.
The counts are only those of “hard pledged” delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary, or in some states, the results of a winner-take-all primary.
It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become “hard pledged” until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates.
http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf
The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.
Pre-February 5th Delegates
Huckabee…….1
McCain……….88
Romney……..34
February 5 Delegates
Huckabee…176
McCain……..539
Romney……..74
PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Huckabee…177
McCain……..627
Romney……108
Media Weeps With Joy Over Hillary’s Latest “Tears” Moment
Meanwhile, assorted pundits wept hot tears of joy at having been granted another chance to seize on a trivial and ultimately meaningless moment to insinuate that Hillary’s inner Lady Macbeth was on display yet again. Predictably, the Hardball gang obsessed over the moment, with Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson telling Chris Matthews that Hillary’s tears are caused by “an impending primary. It just breaks her down.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/
Please tell me how I should of seen that press conference.
“Oh and.. Thank you and good night sweet Lardass Prince! ”
Sheila….uh, does this mean YOU will say nothing negative about Hillary or Bill?
Just to let you know I think he will be a great president. He has come a long way since the convention in 2004. I am just not convinced he is ready today.
To the Karolenna discontents:
What I say about HRD is somewhat first hand. My sister and brother-in-law attended the Clinton
Oh, lovely. The only thing holding back the states from a disgusting and chaotic Greed Rush was the knowledge that they would be punished. Now we’re screwed unless both parties can be talked into the Delaware Plan.
The Democracts better not be fighting over those super delegates at the convention. The Republicans will exploit that in the general -- relentlessly.
Whatever Hillary does, it makes headlines, why? If her dress is ugly, she has a tear in her eye, etc. Then let’s hear, that Obama’s tie does not match his suit. See how silly that is.
Patsi…I know you’re a Hillary supporter just as I am, hugely. I will also strongly support Obama if he wins the nom.
But even the strongest Clinton supporters cannot help but be scared about the potential mudslides from the following story. I’m sure you’ve read it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html?hp
I’m gettin’ all misty…….
—-Maynard G. Krebbs
NY Times,Post, Wash. Post editorials distorted key facts regarding Clinton’s Kazakhstan trip
http://mediamatters.org/items/200802040005?f=s_search
Vadaryl:
The media and the public are obsessed with Hillary -- whether they like her or they hate her.
I am glad she is strong enough to take it. I just hope Obama will be the same when Hannity and crew start their war path on him. If he does have anything in the past you bet Hannity will expose it.
Lardass Liberal: When this blog blew up a few weeks ago it entered a point of no return.
I was wondering, as I turned on TV there was And. Mitchell crying about how party-fracturing a brokered convention would be. A few days ago Craig Crawford said it would be a journalist’s dream.
The pundits said McCain would love it as it would practically guarantee him the White House.
Would average voters rebel and vote for McCain if the candidate was decided by secret superdelegates, uncommitted to any one candidate?
KGC…doesn’t matter. The damn thing rings true. Bill is out there peddling influence. Why else would a former U.S. prez fly to Kazakhstan on a moment’s notice?
As far as the Kazak prez is concerned, this is like having Tsar Peter fly into his realm, circa 1850. Doesn’t matter if the guy is current or former head of state. In the politics of Central Asia….a former US Prez is as good as a current one.
The National Anthem by Marvin Gaye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVzaQ6i8A
LL
So any false claim that fits the public perception is fair game. That’s dangerous territory.
Katherine:
The media and the pundits feel free to distort and slant stories about the Clintons. The battle-scars of the Clintons leave them more open to incoming fire.
Especially when they have one of the most cut-throat and well-armed camps themselves.
It is far more difficult to engage in those type of tactics against Obama or McCain who do not have a history of bitter partisan battles.
Even though I
warren
this is for you
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments
Here’s a link for you to read about Blair and other British government officials being investigated for War Crimes. Its the third or fourth item down.
http://carolsplaceforpeace.blogspot.com/
Signing off.
KGC…I’d be careful about how you define “false claim”.
A rushed trip to a remote spot on the globe by a former U.S. president…which is followed by a $100 million gift by the apparent beneficiary of such gift….???
Doesn’t pass the smell test. It scares me.
Lardass, your blunt segways, post-to-post, are hilarious!
media matters says the article is distorted
and how do you know the trip was rushed whoknows what else they made up.
btw, the Wright Bros. exhibits and the Monument to Flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, are really cool…as a devotee of Nag’s Head and environs for a vacation destination, I highly recommend it, especially for people with kids or grandkids.
KGC…I’m not sure what “distorted” means. All I know is that both Bill Clinton and the Canadian billionaire changed their responses once it was clear they were pretty much nailed. Van Atta is a solid, top-notch reporter. Read his stuff from 2001 on overseas absentees if you don’t believe me.
As a journalist, myself, this story is as smelly as a dead possum. Hopefully, it won’t dent Hillary…but one never knows.
saw nag’s head a bit when I lived in Elizabeth City….
Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack’s administration as opposed to Hillary’s?
He could be Sec. of State or Middle East peace envoy without dealing with all of the co-president issues.
The two-for-one deal failed when the first raised it in the 90′s. It also failed when Bill got too active in this campaign and starting competing for news stories.
Hillary’s strengths are being a wonk fluent with the details and beating down the opposition . . . and she is more effective in the Senate.
LL…..Amazing………
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments
these are direct claims against Obama not against his wife
KGC:
It is a bit dense so I will have to read it later. But at a glance -- I like poker!
The kerfuffle that surrounded President Clinton’s red-faced criticisms of Mr. Obama, over the Iraq war, over race, over American history, brought to an abrupt halt the due diligence about the Illinois senator’s background and beliefs that voters deserve. If the press, or the Clintons, do not close this reporting deficit and Mr. Obama becomes the Democratic candidate, you can be sure that Mr. McCain’s allies will take their duties more seriously http://www.nysun.com/article/70839?page_no=2
Good to see Craig on Dan Abrahms. now.
Craig-- on Abrams now--Great line re: “all the kids are in rehab”! Also, you finally got to say what needed to
be said about the Obama media swoon. Amen
Craig and Pat Buchanon would make a good show
Craig and Pat would make a good show. Dan Abrams needs to stop yelling over his guests. I wanted to hear what Craig and Pat had to say first..
jinx
Yes, a good match, would add Rachel Madow to
their team,she is a true treasure--even handed, smooth delivery.
hey Dog, not all of us
but I do agree
lardass
What influence was he pedaling? As a private citizen he has none to pedal. Was HRC involved in any way? What he does have is great access. From what I could see he was arranging a meeting. It is done everyday. What do you think all those generals do when they retire. They go to work for a big contractor or 2 or in the case Barry Mcafferty 8 or 10. Then all they do is arrange meetings. In addition the money didn’t go in his pocket but for his foundation. Lastly it was 3 years ago. Now if it was tied in any way to a decision made HRC then sure you might have a point. If he does the same thing when his wife is president then that would be troublesome. In fact it would be very Billy Carterish.
Jack
Craig-
Dan Abram’s 5 points were spot on and your comments illustrated the truth in them wonderfully (as did Pat and I never thought I’d say that) But wasn’t it a bit disingenuous to use clips from FOX and CNN when some of the loudest Obama cheerleading and Hillary bashing was done on MSNBC….
~G
To the Graham Cracker Lady,
You
It’ has all the links to the original cites
and firedoglake is a very credible site.
Agree Chris and Pat would make a good show. Isn’t Abrams a managing dir of MSNBC?
They need some fresh faces, after 10 thye have prison shows, the repetitive sexual deviant “caught you shows”. How do we pursue this?
“Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack’s administration as opposed to Hillary’s?”
I am truly on the floor laughing. Warren, you fascinate me. Is this a bunch of sexist claptrap or what? Best let the boys handle things.
Just like that OINKER Dana Milbank sneered an hour or so ago saying that Hillary’s money problems “can’t be solved with a bake sale.”
DO YOU HEAR YOURSELVES?
I feel like I’m back in the days when Stokley Carmichael, speaking for the civil rights and anti-war movements said: “The only place for women in this movement is prone.”
And you wonder what spurred the birth of the modern feminist movement?
Hey WJack…I’m not pretending to know what it all means, or whether it’s right or wrong. All I know is that $100M is a lot of money, is a great number for a newspaper headline, and that there are bound to be a TON of questions as this election season wears on.
elaine of tampa: I guess we could write to MSNBC(shudder)
KGC
So now small time poker games are dens of corruption. Harry Truman would be shocked. I like the fact that Obama plays poker, It is good to know that he is a methodical cautious player. That would be better than the bet big and bluff idiot, we now have occupying the White House.
Although if I could just get dubya to come to my weekly game, I could quit working and retire. I could even be polite. What the hell as long as he brought plenty of money.
Jack
IRan
agree MSNBC has fallen to the bottom of the barrel. They need new blood. They are a media outlet.
I have been watching and I can’t believe I am saying but I am really liking Buchanan. I dont agree philosophically but he has been more objective and has attempted to speak up for HRC.
I think Carig and Pat and Rachel would be great and fair.
Lets do it. Tell me where we need to go for action.
patsi
you are right, there is all kinds of sexism in this race.
I’ve GOT IT!
“Craig & Pat’s MSNBC Dance Party”! One hour of nothing but dancing interspersed with political debate. Sort of Soul Train meets McNeil Lehrer. WHADDAYA THINK?
Of course, we’ll have to wait for Craig’s ankle to heal…
I know when a man yelled a HRC iron my shirts it was a big joek. If a woman had yelled at BO shine my shoes, we would have days of discusiion re rascism.
Julia…can we call it “Craig and Pat’s Dance Date” instead of Dance Party? I think it would be lots sexier that way.
Sounds good Julia.
Elaine…check out link I just posted a second ago. That very point is made about shirt-ironing comments.
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack | February 6, 2008 9:48 PM
kind of like Duke Cunningham played poker
and I think you need to read more of the article if you think it is about playing poker
elaine of tampa: ack IRan?? oh great now McCain will want to bomb me and I just got a haircut.(tongue in cheek)(wait that’s not my tongue)(or my cheek)
I don’t see an e-mail address, probably won’t show since I have java script turned off. oh well when in doubt wait for Jamie, I think she has a link
(*gigglesnorts* As much as I approve of the slash, LardassLiberal, that’s not a ship I’m willing to sail… ;~D)
How about “Craig & Pat’s Mystery Date Dance Party”, that way they could have a “mystery guest”…and the kicker would be that even THEY wouldn’t know who it was gonna be until the person showed up. One day it might be Kofi Annan, the next it’d be Paris Hilton.
Hey Ran…Please step out of the car and count backwards from 1,040 in multiples of seven, okay?
We’re takin’ you in, pal.
LardassLiberal: I don’t know, that makes it sound like Craig and Pat are on a date
how about
Craig and Pat’s Big Dancification and Fried Bologna Sammich Hour
Julia…I LOVE it. You’ve just perfected the concept. Let’s go to the producers, NOW!
dang I’m bagged I can only do multiples of eleven
LOL Ran’s title idea for the win!
OH, okay…the reference went right over my head, Lardass, but day-yam, that’s a good one: just obscure enough, plus it combines C-SPAN with 60s teen dance show television, something that is VERY difficult to do! KUDOS to you!
LardassLiberal: phhhtttt, he probably stole it from someone else, isn’t that how Robespierre started?
I am going to take a principled stand and agree with Julia
unless someone thinks I shouldn’t
1,040…1,033…1,026…
We are a Country that commits War Crimes. See this posting on the admission of Waterboarding.
I can only say that its speaks volumes to what our country has become under Der Fuhrer Adolph Bush and the Dark Lord Dick {Heinrich Himmler} Cheney.
And both houses of Congress are complicit in War Crimes.
Read it here.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/5/16491/97712/63/450486
Signing off.
KGC
Not kinda like Duke at all.
Kinda like every court house and city hall in this nation.
Small time.
quote
“players left a few hundred dollars richer or poorer.” /quote
That describes a 5 dollar limit poker game.
If you think those are big stakes you need to get out more.
A place of relaxed access not rampant corruption. Now , show me the $1000 hookers and I might agree to your point ;-0
Jack
lardassLiberal
thanks it is agreat piece, need to send to everyone I know.
I think the author needs to be Craig and Pat’s first guest. What about that.
Anon-Paranoid,
I probably don’t like Bush-Cheney any more than you do. But to compare them to Hitler-Himmler is just stupid and it trivializes the horror of what the Nazis did on this planet in the 1930s and 1940s. What Hitler-Himmler did involved wholesale rounding up and extermination of an entire class of citizens…to the tune of 6 million plus. What’s going on now in the world bears no relation to that horror.
Get a new comparison, sir. That one rings hollow.
LardassLiberal: ha ha jokes on you, you’re going to have a remainder
Anon
As i said earlyier today . I would like the candidates have to answer this question.
“If , after you are elected president, you are brought evidence that members of the current adminisrtation have approve of war crimes will you prosecute and how will you do it.?”
I think that question should be ask at every debate
Jack
Ran, sorry poor typing.
And before anyone complains about the link you can google this and it will come up as it was just admitted in hearings and also mentioned by a White House spokesperson though I don’t remember his name.
Signing off.
Ran…that’s the whole point: You can try counting all the way back to ZERO…and you’re STILL going to jail!!!
Here’s the AP story link.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hgpBe3IQC85yFF1uNYz2rWHCfwZQD8UKTLF00
Signing off.
elaine of tampa: I was joking
LardassLiberal: curses foiled again
Hey anon-paranoid…why don’t you just go ahead sign off instead of just threatening to sign off before you post something else? M’kay?
You know, I don’t have a problem with a do-over in Florida and Michigan. The previous primaries were fake anyway, where the other candidates were penalized for keeping their word. So why not do it over so that everyone is on an even playing field? Clinton “won” them before. Why can’t she really win them in a second time?
you people are spending way too much time on line and writing way too much for the average bear to read in a day and still have a life.
yo soy Horsedooty!
when I first moved to New Hampster in 1980 and 1, I worked for a guy clearing trees from his property so he would have a better view of Mount Washington. With that in mind after the 2002 SotU address I wrote a piece on my then blog called, I, Ran: Axes of evil: The Story of a Rogue Lumberjack. It was pretty humorous..at least according to the guy that read it
Re: Nazi allegories in any discussion.
See Godwin’s Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
alpha
BO was advertising all over FL. Golden Boy did not keep his promise not to advertise. He had several private fundraisers and met with grass roots supporters.
Sen Clinton did not advertise
But again a double standard, everone let him get away with it. I have been an HRC supporter and thought he was ok, he lost my respect with that obvious slap to the process. We had the Kennedy ads, his bacground ads, etc.
“just stay the hell out of the mens room”
Larry! Is that you?
Okay…Signing off gang. As usual, it’s been real. On to November!!!
Julia
Godwins Law;
That pretty much discribes the state of the discussion between the left and the
bush administration.
no reason to keep it going no useful information being exchanged.
Jack