Fifty years ago today JFK’s challenge to the moon led our nation to dominance of the computer age.
NASA.gov – “On Sept. 12, 1962, President John F. Kennedy spoke at Rice University about his decision to send Americans to the moon. His famous declaration that the United States would forego easy options and choose to do things specifically “because they are hard” became the bedrock of NASA’s foundation.”
Well, space is there, and we’re going to climb it
I appreciate your president having made me an honorary visiting professor, and I will assure you that my first lecture will be very brief.
I am delighted to be here, and I’m particularly delighted to be here on this occasion.
We meet at a college noted for knowledge, in a city noted for progress, in a State noted for strength, and we stand in need of all three, for we meet in an hour of change and challenge, in a decade of hope and fear, in an age of both knowledge and ignorance. The greater our knowledge increases, the greater our ignorance unfolds.
Despite the striking fact that most of the scientists that the world has ever known are alive and working today, despite the fact that this Nation’s own scientific manpower is doubling every 12 years in a rate of growth more than three times that of our population as a whole, despite that, the vast stretches of the unknown and the unanswered and the unfinished still far outstrip our collective comprehension.
No man can fully grasp how far and how fast we have come, but condense, if you will, the 50,000 years of man’s recorded history in a time span of but a half-century. Stated in these terms, we know very little about the first 40 years, except at the end of them advanced man had learned to use the skins of animals to cover them. Then about 10 years ago, under this standard, man emerged from his caves to construct other kinds of shelter. Only five years ago man learned to write and use a cart with wheels. Christianity began less than two years ago. The printing press came this year, and then less than two months ago, during this whole 50-year span of human history, the steam engine provided a new source of power.
Newton explored the meaning of gravity. Last month electric lights and telephones and automobiles and airplanes became available. Only last week did we develop penicillin and television and nuclear power, and now if America’s new spacecraft succeeds in reaching Venus, we will have literally reached the stars before midnight tonight.
This is a breathtaking pace, and such a pace cannot help but create new ills as it dispels old, new ignorance, new problems, new dangers. Surely the opening vistas of space promise high costs and hardships, as well as high reward.
So it is not surprising that some would have us stay where we are a little longer to rest, to wait. But this city of Houston, this State of Texas, this country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them. This country was conquered by those who moved forward–and so will space.
William Bradford, speaking in 1630 of the founding of the Plymouth Bay Colony, said that all great and honorable actions are accompanied with great difficulties, and both must be enterprised and overcome with answerable courage.
If this capsule history of our progress teaches us anything, it is that man, in his quest for knowledge and progress, is determined and cannot be deterred. The exploration of space will go ahead, whether we join in it or not, and it is one of the great adventures of all time, and no nation which expects to be the leader of other nations can expect to stay behind in the race for space.
Those who came before us made certain that this country rode the first waves of the industrial revolutions, the first waves of modern invention, and the first wave of nuclear power, and this generation does not intend to founder in the backwash of the coming age of space. We mean to be a part of it–we mean to lead it. For the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond, and we have vowed that we shall not see it governed by a hostile flag of conquest, but by a banner of freedom and peace. We have vowed that we shall not see space filled with weapons of mass destruction, but with instruments of knowledge and understanding.
Yet the vows of this Nation can only be fulfilled if we in this Nation are first, and, therefore, we intend to be first. In short, our leadership in science and in industry, our hopes for peace and security, our obligations to ourselves as well as others, all require us to make this effort, to solve these mysteries, to solve them for the good of all men, and to become the world’s leading space-faring nation.
We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people. For space science, like nuclear science and all technology, has no conscience of its own. Whether it will become a force for good or ill depends on man, and only if the United States occupies a position of pre-eminence can we help decide whether this new ocean will be a sea of peace or a new terrifying theater of war. I do not say the we should or will go unprotected against the hostile misuse of space any more than we go unprotected against the hostile use of land or sea, but I do say that space can be explored and mastered without feeding the fires of war, without repeating the mistakes that man has made in extending his writ around this globe of ours.
There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation many never come again. But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.
In the last 24 hours we have seen facilities now being created for the greatest and most complex exploration in man’s history. We have felt the ground shake and the air shattered by the testing of a Saturn C-1 booster rocket, many times as powerful as the Atlas which launched John Glenn, generating power equivalent to 10,000 automobiles with their accelerators on the floor. We have seen the site where the F-1 rocket engines, each one as powerful as all eight engines of the Saturn combined, will be clustered together to make the advanced Saturn missile, assembled in a new building to be built at Cape Canaveral as tall as a 48 story structure, as wide as a city block, and as long as two lengths of this field.
Within these last 19 months at least 45 satellites have circled the earth. Some 40 of them were “made in the United States of America” and they were far more sophisticated and supplied far more knowledge to the people of the world than those of the Soviet Union.
The Mariner spacecraft now on its way to Venus is the most intricate instrument in the history of space science. The accuracy of that shot is comparable to firing a missile from Cape Canaveral and dropping it in this stadium between the the 40-yard lines.
Transit satellites are helping our ships at sea to steer a safer course. Tiros satellites have given us unprecedented warnings of hurricanes and storms, and will do the same for forest fires and icebergs.
We have had our failures, but so have others, even if they do not admit them. And they may be less public.
To be sure, we are behind, and will be behind for some time in manned flight. But we do not intend to stay behind, and in this decade, we shall make up and move ahead.
The growth of our science and education will be enriched by new knowledge of our universe and environment, by new techniques of learning and mapping and observation, by new tools and computers for industry, medicine, the home as well as the school. Technical institutions, such as Rice, will reap the harvest of these gains.
And finally, the space effort itself, while still in its infancy, has already created a great number of new companies, and tens of thousands of new jobs. Space and related industries are generating new demands in investment and skilled personnel, and this city and this State, and this region, will share greatly in this growth. What was once the furthest outpost on the old frontier of the West will be the furthest outpost on the new frontier of science and space. Houston, your City of Houston, with its Manned Spacecraft Center, will become the heart of a large scientific and engineering community. During the next 5 years the National Aeronautics and Space Administration expects to double the number of scientists and engineers in this area, to increase its outlays for salaries and expenses to $60 million a year; to invest some $200 million in plant and laboratory facilities; and to direct or contract for new space efforts over $1 billion from this Center in this City.
To be sure, all this costs us all a good deal of money. This year¹s space budget is three times what it was in January 1961, and it is greater than the space budget of the previous eight years combined. That budget now stands at $5,400 million a year–a staggering sum, though somewhat less than we pay for cigarettes and cigars every year. Space expenditures will soon rise some more, from 40 cents per person per week to more than 50 cents a week for every man, woman and child in the United Stated, for we have given this program a high national priority–even though I realize that this is in some measure an act of faith and vision, for we do not now know what benefits await us.
But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun–almost as hot as it is here today–and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out–then we must be bold.
I’m the one who is doing all the work, so we just want you to stay cool for a minute. [laughter]
However, I think we’re going to do it, and I think that we must pay what needs to be paid. I don’t think we ought to waste any money, but I think we ought to do the job. And this will be done in the decade of the sixties. It may be done while some of you are still here at school at this college and university. It will be done during the term of office of some of the people who sit here on this platform. But it will be done. And it will be done before the end of this decade.
I am delighted that this university is playing a part in putting a man on the moon as part of a great national effort of the United States of America.
Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, “Because it is there.”
Well, space is there, and we’re going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God’s blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked.
Thank you.
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159 Responses to What Presidents Can Do: The Vision Thing
Now on The Trail
Craig,
The pictures and posts have been great -- and keeping me, for one, more informed.
Love your enthusiasm and passion for space travel. (I’m surprised you never considered becoming an astronaut)
An interesting article about those Democrats working to eventually bring the southern states back into to Democratic party:
PoliticsLack of Southerners on US presidential ticket.
http://www.mail.com/news/politics/1555754-lack-southerners-us-presidential-tickets.html#.2718-stage-set1-7
“You’ve seen a peak in Republican power and the bottoming-out for Democrats,” said former U.S. attorney Doug Jones, of Birmingham, Ala., who represented his state’s Democratic Party as a convention delegate in Charlotte, N.C. “We’ve just got to do a better job educating folks about their bottom lines and what our policies mean for people on a day-to-day basis.” That task, Jones said, “will have to take place over multiple election cycles.
“That’s one of the problems we’ve had in the South,” Jones said. “We’ve always been against something, whether it was civil rights or something else. The Southern vote is so often driven about what we’re against.”
If Democrats work methodically, he said, to “define ourselves as who we are, as opposed to just not being the other guy,” the party will grow and inevitably produce national leaders again. Arkansas Democratic Chairman Will Bond said his state provides a blueprint.
Arkansas is the last former Confederate state where Democrats still control both chambers of the Legislature. Republicans cut into their majorities in the national GOP sweep of 2010, but couldn’t take over. Democratic Gov. Mike Beebe, meanwhile, won every county on his way to a second term.
Bond said the Arkansas party, besides enjoying the afterglow of having produced a president, has focused relentlessly on fiscal responsibility, education and economic development. “We just have to do a better job of telling our story across the South,” he said”
… sorry for the length of my quote, Craig.
It’ just that so many or those things were meaningful to me.
The maps I’ve seen show Texas as dark pink (better than bright red) this year. We’ve had many move here from the far west states as well as the northern states. I see the license plates all the time (and no one likes to ‘visit’ here during the summer months, so not much of it would be vacations). There’s been a population explosion in Houston, and things have gotten so much better because of that..
It doesn’t look like a very promising spot for a fish camp.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19570254
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/
Boston Mike on MoJo suggested the pastor responsible for the film could be charged as an accessory to the attacks. Was he serious?
We have freedom of expression and religious freedom. The fact that clips get posted online and others, who want to find one more reason to hate us, watch it and become violent, is not a crime.
Speaking your mind is not the same as inciting violence. Everyone is responsible for their re-action. Let’s hope cooler heads prevail in the WH.
RomneyCO, of course, had another foreign policy fumble. How did their message about not releasing a statement on the attacks until after 9/11 even get out?
Romney’s tax records are, apparently, being held hostage; let the bidding war begin.
“…new hopes for peace and knowledge are there.” -jfk
Oh, they’re out there, cuz they sure don’t seem to be down here.
Mike has been known to say some dumb things. Add this to the list.
Romney -- trying to act like a big boy -- badly. I’m sure Faux will be impressed -- but no one else will likely see Obama’s statement as anything other than appropriate or give it a second thought. (Note to Mitt -- the Secretary of State speaks for the administration on matters of foreign policy, and she strongly condemned the actions of the protesters).
blue, you may need to give the Romney campaign a workshop on first amendment freedoms. The boys and girls over there apparently don’t understand them.
I guess Romney missed this http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/09/12/obamas-statement-on-libya-attack/ statement from the President. Maybe he isn’t reading the WSJ as often as he should during the campaign
: I’m sure it is one of his favorites. Putz.
First paragraph of Obama’s statement about the Benghazi attack:
“I strongly condemn the outrageous attack on our diplomatic facility in Benghazi, which took the lives of four Americans, including Ambassador Chris Stevens. Right now, the American people have the families of those we lost in our thoughts and prayers. They exemplified America’s commitment to freedom, justice, and partnership with nations and people around the globe, and stand in stark contrast to those who callously took their lives.”
Romney’s response:
“It’s disgraceful that the Obama Administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, …”
Exactly what part of the first twelve words of the Obama statement does Romney fail to see? My god.
OK, someone else’s turn.
Typical Romney. Obama said it, and Romney comes out and says he didn’t say it. When all else fails, distort the truth. Romney is an insult to putzes everywhere.
Can we just put Bebe Netanyahu and his business partner Mitt Romney in a burlap bag for dropping off the nearest high bridge? Between the two of them, we are likely to end up in another major war and a full blown explosion in the Middle East.
Article on the Romney Netanyahu friendship from NY Times
What Romney really fears is that this might be another opportunity for Obama to demonstrate some real diplomatic skills and some foreign policy moxie, which would be in stark contrast to Romney’s lack of same.
Sorry Mitt, the guy sitting in the chair is the adult.
Can we refer to the two of them as Bebe Mittenyahu?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/zadroga-bill-september-11_n_1874638.html
Which one of Mitt’s high paid handlers ever suggested that Ryan would bring a lot to the ticket?
No wonder they are losing.
“Romney is an insult to putzes everywhere.” LOL :!: Quote pf the day.
i’ve served with putzes, i’ve known putzes, a putz was a friend of mine. he is no putz, maybe a wannabe but surely an inferior sub-putz. one who gives putzes a bad name.
Fugelsang is doing an excellent job on Current this morning of laying out the order of events and who did what when on the Egyptian events.
LOL!.. youz guys are funny this morning….
Craig… sadly… I’m not sure it’s possible for a president to be Kennedyesque in this day and age. With cable news on 24/7… and every little thing about a modern day president being dissected, bisected, and any other kind of “ected” you can come up with.
A president being that inspiring was only possible because the press didn’t report on JFK’s multiple affairs. And also didn’t report what he ate for breakfast or the color of his underwear.
I really think we’ve grown too cynical (myself included) as a nation to see our presidents as heroes.
I was telling hubby the other day, I was happy we were not governed by a religious sect, church, etc. And yesterday another religious murder at the hands of a crappy pastor (insert preist, iman, etc.) touting hate…and bring on candidate Romney and his big, classless mouth. His dream of Sparta may be a reality.
I wish HRC wouuld take-on Romney and take him down. He is desperate to win and the media blasts his comments? Classless media, too. Please Hillary, shut his mouth!
Romney and Ryan are not ready for prime time!
First Amendment. It’s been suggested that the producer of the offensive film is our preacher friend from Florida who has used his pulpit as an offensive parapet in the past.
At some point we must ask ourselves if ‘fighting-words’ do not also apply to religious speak when the words are calculated to cause reaction such as occurred in this case. What if the reaction occurred in Michigan?
Flatus
Koran burning, bible thumping Terry Jones didn’t have anything to do with making the movie. He promoted it on his website. It was made by an Israeli American and paid for by a group involved in the whole far right fundamentalist Jewish/Christian (Yeah Israel -- Bring on the apocalypse) crowd. This was all dying a well deserved, unnoticed You Tube death except among the hate Muslim folks until it got translated into Arabic and picked up by Egyptian media who flogged it to their fundamentalist and uneducated.
End result, the extremes are getting people killed again and the GOP is trying to make election year news on the backs of the corpses.
Perhaps the preacher and his hateful church should start paying taxes — you want to be political??? — you should lose the church status. You can pay for the mess in Libya and Egypt…at least pay for the funerals.
Jamie…great quote…I made a few changes — But, it happens here, too.
The Arab Spring may be Obama’s biggest stumble, but it takes balls to suggest authoritarian regimes in those countries better serve U.S interests. I certainly would never suggest such a thing.
Anti-Islamist film maker in hiding
Clinton statement on Libya
“How could this happen in a country we helped liberate, in a city we helped save from destruction?”
Romney’s statement is crass political exploitation of a tragic situation.
Gee, how could playing with matches burn the house down? Hmm…
Obama to comment on Libya in one minute: Live Feed
Thanks, for HRC’s speech…
She is more presidential than either Obama or Romney!
Question after Obama’s speech --
Moron media…the president of Libya did not authorize this…it was an extreme radical group. Gopper press trying to play the drums of war. Ignorant.
agree blonde, first question is what did Obama mean by “justice will be done?” that was the newsy thing in his remarks. but then he wasn’t taking questions, so reporters end up sounding like schoolyard bullies, which of course is what WH handlers want it to look like
Full video of Obama on Libya. Remarkable scene there of he and HRC, what a history those two have by now. Both look like they endured a few 3am phone calls last night.
gee… just when you think Romney couldn’t look anymore stupid on foreign policy than he already does… he does…
Champ… I agree with your sentiment… if you’re going to play cop of the world, you have to expect a punch or two thrown your way every now and then.
It worked for me, Craig. The press looks absolutely ignorant.
These are murders and we have to go after the murderers, not declare war.
HRC…please be our SOS into Obama’s next term.
RR…it sure seems the Romney campaign is desperate. The stupidity and crassness just follows.
My condolences to all of the family members involved in the attack.
One of my fears of a Romney administration is that in a situation such as what just happened… he would declare war.
BlondeW… desperate people say desperate things…
Maybe Obama should start apologizing to the world — for having to listen to Mitt Romney
RR…Romney believes in a strong army to make sure everyone fears the US throughout the globe. I don’t know where he thinks the money comes from, but ignorance of war costs will surely put us in a permanent economic depression. The rich are going to have to cough-up some money in the form of a war chest if they want to own and police the world.
So Craig
You still stand by your full support of Obama’s illegal and unconstitutional military overthrow of the gadaffi regime
This is exactly the expected results of going to war under the authority of NATO and the UN .
Instead of the united states congress and the citizens ,
As required by the constitution
mqw…you are living in the past. Congress no longer works and the US citizen’s are too broke for more war. So, bombing and drones rule the day — no boots on the ground other than diplomatic.
Craig is not a warmonger, IMHO.
Romney is in big trouble this morning; even Peggy Noonen is critical of him on Fox…
“Mike has been known to say some dumb things. Add this to the list.”- Pogo @7:53am
Unless terry jones was an accessory. He does have contacts overseas, and lived in un-America for 30 years. As fakes news would say, it could be….
MQW, Congress has so pitifully abandoned its war powers i don’t have much fight left in me for that issue, correct as you are. Did think Obama should have sought permission for Libya under War Powers Act, but even that shred of constitutionl cover is gone. One thing for sure if we were drafting people for these wars the public would push Congress to at least debate the damn things.
bw, hillary’s “never take an innocent life in the name of god” quote should weigh heavy on certain folk from places like northern ireland, the pakistan-indian border as well as the west bank and aleppo.
there’s a vengeful part of me that would like to produce and pepper the world (especially the aforementioned places of religious strife and violence) with cartoons caricaturing all the icons in whose names these acts are made. judeo-christian, muslim, hindu… all. little leaflets of ecumenical truth and humor drifting from the heavens.
i’m no fool tho’… the captions would be in mandarin.
MQW,
We didn’t overthrow k-daffy. Libyans did that. We merely sped the process by shattering k-daffy’s command and control and suppressing his firepower with a few missiles. The fight for control of the country was won by Libyan guerillas in the mountains bordering Tunisia. We weren’t there, but the French might have been.
The constitution is the law ,
So I’m living in past to say the president should follow
The law ? Hah
On cable shows I repeatedly hear people say that Romney is a good man. They are wrong!
I agree that the Admin should have consulted Congress, and that the War Powers Act rules in situations like the Libyan bombing. However, under the Act, there is period during which the Admin can act without hindrance. When that time has passed, the Congress can invoke the War Powers Act. In the case of Libya, the republican-run Congress had no interest in meddling.
One thing for sure if we were drafting people for these wars the public would push Congress to at least debate the damn things.
Craig… I couldn’t agree more… however… IMO, neither party has the cojones to reinstitute the draft.
I feel sorry for Hillary and her frenetic travel schedule.
Friday, Toots, granddaughter Crystal, and I took a rapid trip to the Cleveland area to help my aunt celebrate her 94th birthday (she was in remarkably good health and seemed to enjoy herself thoroughly at Saturday’s to-do which was held at her house with about 25 of my cousins in attendance.)
When I departed Columbia, I had my meds all packed and in baggies so that they would be easy to take at the appropriate times. Problem is, I forgot to take the baggies. That put me in semi-crisis mode as two of the meds are anti-seizure products with cautions about not-missing doses. And the other important one was for my Crohn’s.
The first two meds were prescribed primarily for debilitating neuropathic symptoms. The only thing I could hope for was making it home while I could still navigate.
On the Chron’s med, I decided to stop eating until I got home and was back on my meds; I didn’t want to repeat last November’s hospitalization. For the three day trip, I restricted myself to black coffee and vanilla ice cream.
Friday night and Saturday I had fitful sleep--the neuropathic pain kept escalating.
Sunday morning we left just before dawn with Toots at the wheel of Rosemary. She drove until it became light and then I took the wheel for the rest of the trip.
Rosemary sensed my urgency and went into race mode. Going thru Pogo’s mountains she insisted on traveling at speeds approaching 100-mph. In any case we were back in Columbia well before 1700; pretty good time for a 600-mile trip.
As soon as I got into the house I took my meds which provided prompt relief. Fortunate, too, because the last couple of hours my pain level was up to 9.5.
Monday and Tuesday I spent most of time catching up on my sleep. I’m still eating very gingerly.
mqw
No you are living in the past if you think this is all the President’s fault. Last time I checked there are three branches of government.
If the legislative totally abandons its purpose of making laws and approving Executive actions while sinking into the mud slinging of a group of squabbling four year old playground brats, then you can’t blame the President for trying to keep things moving.
You might disagree with Executive Branch actions, but save the condemnation for the completely dysfunctional Congress.
The president was in south America when he ordered military action in Libya ,
He didn’t even make a pretense of consulting with congress
And yes Craig advocated our direct involvement in a civil war that was never any of our business ,
And once again as easily predicted by me and my fellow non-interventionist our meddling has come back to bite us in the ass
Gee, I wish my world view was so clear-cut that I could always, acurately predict the outcome of every event.
Look at what is happening in Syria, yet the world just watches. You may be worried by who would take AssWad’s place, but what would happen, subsequent, to the new regime taking control?
Is any involvement, anywhere on Earth, short-sighted? You could argue that both ways; intended outcomes, unintended outcomes, and what transpires from either outcome going forward.
As horrible as things are sometimes, something good manages to come from it. That doesn’t change the past or bring back the dead, but going forward, it might make a positive difference in the lives of others.
Flatus -- Glad you made it home.
Hillary has a stronger constitution than most, it seems. Would she even want another round as SOS?
Flatus… so glad you’re ok.
More than a few yrs ago, I stupidly forgot to pack one of my diabetes medications when we went on vacation to our timeshare in the northern part of our state. Luckily the town had a store of the national drugstore chain where I get my meds from. I called my doctor and she called them to get me a week’s emergency supply of the med.
One good thing that came out of it… my meds are now the first thing I pack instead of the last.
It’s easily predictable that our flawed foreign policy will have unintended long term consequences if people would take time to learn a little history
Just as Eisenhower ordered the CIA to overthrow the legitimately elected government of Iran in 1953, “operation Ajax ‘and install the shah as dictator ,
At the request of the British government and British Petroleum
Which led to the Iranian revolution , which give us the present situation with Iran
There are lots of sources of law. So Obama should have lied to get Congress’ support (AUMF) and order a full scale war, invade and occupy a sovereign country that poses no threat to us and capture its leader and turn him over to the insurgent citizenry to “try” convict and kill him? Oh, wait, I slipped into talking about Iraq. So short of declaring and engaging in war (technical term, hostilities) with Libya, what do you think Obama was required to do prior to acting in the NATO run operation last year? There were two schools of legal thought on that one, and the War Powers Resolution is not invoked school won over the “is invoked” school of thought.
Sooo, that’s our only two options ?
Full scale war or a covert low scale war ?
How about we just stay the hell out of places we have no business in .
Anyone who thinks these attacks were spontaneous reactions to some internet spot is an idiot. This was clearly coordinated effort to rouse the muslim populace globally. its occurance on 9/11 was no accident.
I doubt that it is over either.
This is clearly building momentum.
I’m sure that the muslim brotherhood and other muslim supremesists recognize the weakness and paralysis in the current US administration and will try to exploit it as much as possible.
Our snubbing of our only real ally in the region will do nothing but encourage this line of action.
It looks like the neocons are in full control of Mitt Romney’s foreign policy, damn the truth, full war ahead.
Jax
Spoken like a true neocon israel firster’
You are wrong too
Our 30 year support of a ruthless dictator “Mubarak ”
Is what allowed the Muslim brotherhood to rise up and be a force in the middle east
Mqw,
I’ve traveled the middle east and africa extensively. The entire region is a festering, cesspool of uneducated, fanatical zealots. The few intellectuals fled years ago. The only effective control for years has been through dictators and authoritarian leaders.
I’ve seen nothing to change my view of it. Our best efforts in the region to maintain some semblance of stability continue to be to keep them at each other throats and let Israel take the risks as our proxy.
Wait…I just realized that you are probably too stupid to understand any of this…..my bad
Jax
And what has your neo con foreign policy got us
Completely bankrupt , you check that debt clock lately ?
Yea it just rolled past the 16trillion mark and kept right on going ,
And I’m stupid ?
C’mon Jax, that last line uncalled for. This is a worthy debate, and you make good points, but insults like that undercut your case
Seems to me stupidity is wading in a cesspool
Don’t you have any better sense
MQW,
Wow…..is that adult ADD kickin in….
I’ll…..type…..slowly
try to focus on the discusson at hand….
or maybe just think….first….laughs
mqw, legally speaking, that is almost true. But I’d tend to agree that your suggestion is what we should do, but that wasn’t the question, was it? I saw a post mortem of the Libya air war (not my description -- that was what the press called it).
Craig,
Yeah,, you’re right…..My apologies…
I’ll retire until I’m in better frame of mind.
OK, mqw jax, i’ll once again take my drink to a corner table and watch the fight. But just know I think we all learn more from your arguments without the namecalling.
yeah… this is one of the better debates I’ve seen in some time on this blog. Too bad we couldn’t see more of this type of stuff coming out of the campaigns.
Too bad Solar isn’t around for this one -- it’s the kind he loves.
Jax
If you havent learned anything from Iraq
Then I wouldn’t be questioning someone else’s mental capacities
pogo, and with solar at least he provides the beer.
good arguments always leave one so parched… and that’s speaking as a bystander.
flatus, glad you’re back.
renee, sorry i forgot your big day. tho’t you and jamie were ignoring them from now on anyway.
y’all grab a seat, take a side and watch the fight.
I don’t have to convince anyone that I’m right ,
History will do that
We will withdraw from the middle east ,
Either in a controlled orderly fashion ,
Or when we are all destitute, poor ,living in a police state ,
And can no longer afford to maintain a presence there
I like the edit feature because I can fix a typo or something I regret saying…
Xi Jinping, who is slated to become the next leader of China, has apparently suffered a heart attack, according to a report in the London Daily Telegraph.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile-barack-obama
netanyahu faces re-election this winter. I hope likud and its junior partners lose every seat in parliament. Forever.
patd… this isn’t my blog… I don’t have any policies regarding anything here. And no apologies needed, sweetie.
mqw… I’ve agreed with quite a bit of what you’re posting today.
yes… I do miss the beer and I do miss the nachos… but most of all… I do miss Solar.
When Congress passed the War Powers Act, they didn’t prevent the Executive branch from committing acts of war. The Act makes the Executive seek Congressional Authority for extended hostilities.
Flatus,
I’m happy you’re back.
Now, where are the combatants?
Xrep — Gosh, I hope this doesn’t get like the WWE…last dude suffered a heart attack. I hope mqw and jax are in their respective corners. And no drones, please.
Flatus -- just glad you are able to talk about the weekend. Don’t do that any more!!
And now the supposition is turning up that the video may have been an Al Qaida disinformation plot from the get go and they used a delusional right winger to set up for an attack on a US Embassy.
If true, this is another example that leaping without looking is probably never a good idea.
Let’s hope this doesn’t happen, mqw, though with a Romney at the helm this may be a possibility.
Whoa, Jax! You’re stock’s going to sink faster than Facebook’s if you call people “stupid”.
Yes but no president has ever formally agreed to this law’s validity altho some have voluntarily complied with it (while carefully reserving the right not to). And in the Libya case Pres. Obama ignored it and Congress did nothing. Which is why the Act has become as worthless as the contents of a spitoon. Dang, MQW is starting to get me worked up again. I’ll never forget the look of despair on Robert Byrd’s face the day Senate finally debated Iraq invasion and almost no one showed up. We could hear him from the press gallery say to an aide, “Where is everybody?” Seemed like Byrd himself knew that on this day his career long battle to preserve congressional war power had finally been lost.
CNN has a running blog on events. Makes good reading to check in on all the tides that are turning and crashing.
Romney is proving himself to be not only a bad candidate but almost totally ignorant about international forces and the global situation.
As Perky Peggy said, “He’s not doing himself any favors”, and for once I agree with her.
The remainder of the Middle East that wasn’t destabilized under Bush has been destabilized under Obama, so turning the attention to an alternative “Romney” foreign policy, whatever it may be, probably isn’t the best political strategy, if you favor Obama. Not to be crassly political in the immediate aftermath of tragedy…
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Article 1 section 8
Has HRC really had any significant achievements as Sec. of State, anyway? I can’t think of any.
The constitution has never been amended when it comes to power to declare war
Hey Craig
That’s good for you ,get your blood circulating
Lol
This article sets out the decision making process to bypass the war powers act in the Libyan situation.
mqw
Just because a rule exists doesn’t mean it gets followed. Kicking ones heels on the floor and crying, “It’s not fair, they aren’t doing it right!” doesn’t change anything. Until Congress starts doing its job, then following the law that nature abhors a vacuum, the Executive will grab the position.
Conceptually, the War Powers Resolution can be broken down into several distinct parts. The first part states the policy behind the law, namely to “insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities,” and that the President’s powers as Commander in Chief are exercised only pursuant to a declaration of war, specific statutory authorization from Congress, or a national emergency created by an attack upon the United States (50 USC Sec. 1541).
The second part requires the President to consult with Congress before introducing U.S. armed forces into hostilities or situations where hostilities are imminent, and to continue such consultations as long as U.S. armed forces remain in such situations (50 USC Sec. 1542). The third part sets forth reporting requirements that the President must comply with any time he introduces U.S. armed forces into existing or imminent hostilities (50 USC Sec. 1543); section 1543(a)(1) is particularly significant because it can trigger a 60 day time limit on the use of U.S. forces under section 1544(b).
The second part requires the President to consult with Congress before introducing U.S. armed forces into hostilities or situations where hostilities are imminent, and to continue such consultations as long as U.S. armed forces remain in such situations
So Obama ignored the constitutoon and the war powers act
First, no one declared war.
The Article 1 power to declare war is at times at odds with the Article 2 power of the President as Commander in Chief.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; …
Article 2, Section 2.
The War Powers Resolution (as opposed to the War Powers Act of 1941) was an attempt to reconcile these two powers and prevent another Vietnam. Reagan, Clinton and Obama have all violated the act. Every president since its 1973 enactment have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional. None of the 3 presidents who violated the act have been sued for those violations, so the constitutionality of the resolution, while presumed, has not been determined,
“The War Powers Resolution requires the President to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30 day withdrawal period, without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war.”
Wiki (the fount). There is no constitutional provision for an authorization of military force.
“[The President] shall have Power, by and with Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur…”
Article 2, section 2, clause 2.
We participated in the Libyan action as a result of our membership in NATO and the North Atlantic Treaty (1949). That treaty is also a law in the US.
Which of the foregoing governs the participation of the US in the Libya Air War will undoubtedly be on a Con Law exam (likely) or an International Law exam (less likely) this semester.
If I were a big Republican donor I’d be closing up my checkbook
The diplomat killed sounded like a really neat person
Ambassador Stevens death should not be a talking point for Romney --
Robert Wexler just let Dan Senor Mr. Campbell Brown have it square between the eyes
With the polls headed in the wrong direction at just the wrong time, everything will be a talking point for Romney. Of course with all that foot goo he keeps putting in his mouth, he might consider following his party folks’ advice and just shut up.
HEY RENEE!!!!
Belated Happy Birthday, you go girl!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day.
$Rmoney the yellow bellied coward who would not put on a uniform and fight for his country should just STFU.
He supported the War in Vietnam and marched for the war. So what did he do?
He got a Religious Exemption and went to France. Then says he wish’s that he could have fought in said War.
Meanwhile Ali who was against the War applied for a Religious Exemption because he believed the War was wrong and killing was against his Religion.
He was denied and ended up in jail for his beliefs.
So who held a higher Religious Belief? Ali who went to jail for his? Or $Rmoney who went to France for his?
$Rmoney supports War in the Middle East and he has five sons who are just like him. Yellow Bellied Cowards who refuse to put a uniform on and fight for their country.
So as far as I’m concerned $Rmoney should just shut the fuck up and drop dead.
Have a great evening.
Romney thinks working on his campaign is the same as serving in the military… At least that’s what he said when asked if any of HIS sons were serving in the military.
Thanks for the clarification
Craig,
MQW,
Pogo.
What a fabulous thread.
willard misattributes a statement by an Ambassador (or the Amby’s flack) to the President, and then won’t retract and won’t apologize.
Iow, he is adamant in his dishonesty.
‘Staying the course’, while in dys-integrity is no virtue.
Perhaps Romney should be replaced as the nominee. At least Herman Cain has a sense of humor…
Why do I always miss out on the feisty threads?
OD
If they couldn’t get Akins to step aside — there is no chance that Mittens would. He still thinks he can win
he’ll be looking under every rock for something, anything — and you are right Mittens has no sense of humor although I’m not sure I would say Pizza Pimp has one either
Flatus,
Doesn’t sound like a very great weekend.
Glad you are back and feeling better.
At the risk of sounding like a nag, might I please ask you to take care of yourself.
KGC,
Quite the contrary, every time he said nine-nine-nine,
I laughed my ass off, so did everybody else.
…I worry that Romney will say and do anything as he gets more desperate. This could cause adverse reactions around the world…
On Hardball, Ron Reagan said that half of Republicans are ignorant and crazy. He also said that they are the kind of people who wear bells on their shoes…He is my favorite Reagan…
KGC…You may be right about Cain’s sense of humor…
I did laugh whenever Cain spoke…
I just want to take a second or two of your time and thank those who wanted me to friend them on FaceBook.
If you have not heard back from me please forgive me for not replying to your FaceBook Friend request.
Outside of those few blogs and websites where I do post comments I do not do any of the Social Network sites.
This is no reflection on anyone who does, but it is not something I do.
Thank all of you who had asked me to join, but I must respectively decline. Once again thank you all and…
Have a great evening.
Sense of humor my ass, he was a joke unto himself.
I can see that I will have to read again the whole damn day.
but…..”offensive parapets”: that, I had to ponder.
Flatus,
Glad to hear about your mini trip..Your so practical..You have shown us all this year how to live life with dignity and grace…
MQW,
Your very smart and i really appreciate reading your points of view as i feel i really learn something..
Yep, i miss Solar as well, fired off an e-mail to him to check on him, told him he was missed..
I think that congress has a great deal as it stands now.
They can stand back and cheer the war at its beginning, and then stand around and tut, tut, tut, when said war goes sour (example Iraq) and say “oh my you should have consulted us first”
Personally, I say fuck them and their weather vane attitude when it is time to talk of war.
and just ‘pon top de front ob’em….y’ain’ spose call nobody stupid. Even I know dat. That’s what Adolph did….called people stupid. And evil. Stupid and Evil.
As if they were the same.
Why is it, that congress is always so anxious to get back those prerogatives that they so easily forfeited in the first place?
Humans are largely goofy.
but I understand that it’s not their fault and that even if it is some other dude took it upon himself to uh….you know, make the deal for them……
you gotta wonder about his nickname: christ the redeemer. like a guy who’s going to the pawn shop to set free the little valuable he’s paid the interest on for so long?
oh well….it’s just philosophical reduction….
--Elmer Camus
Elmer and Edgar Camus always thought their brother just loved to muddy the waters.
Sturgeone
The evil usually know they are evil and act anyway. They are somewhat controllable since they are predictable. Unfortunately the stupid often do evil simply because they don’t know that it is so they can be far more dangerous.
Then there is the added difference between stupid and ignorant. Ignorance is curable, but what do you do with people who refuse to listen or learn.
and you think about it that old boy went to the mattresses all by his ownself against every power that was to try and establish the right of an old everyday human to NOT be an asshole. They strung his ass up.
Let that be a lesson to ya……
You gotta’ love Romney.
No matter how many shit sandwiches he eats, he keeps trying to find one that tastes good.
“Do you have any Grey Pupon?”
The 60 Vote Myth that Will Not Die
By: Jon Walker http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2012/09/10/the-60-vote-myth-that-will-not-die/
I almost thought I felt sorry for the rippers, having their developmentally disabled candidate, dullard rumdumbney. But then I got an email with a phoney ‘news’ article about Obama being gay. No byline, no date, just republican lies and hate.
Na. They deserve the worst beating in history, in 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022,each one worse than the previous until they are the 4th party behind DEms, Greens,and Libs.
” Unfortunately the stupid often do evil simply because they don’t know that it is so they can be far more dangerous.’
Truly evil people are sick, Sturge. They have no conscience, and therefore are sociopaths or psychopaths.
Politicians may be in a class of their own, though. They’ve created a whole to set of rules, and support each other for their wrong doings, because they’ve kidded the selves into thinking they know more and are so much smarter than the rest of us. Self-deception is a very dangerous state to be in.
… and how can we, the people, ever know what’s going on. We’re always being given versions of the truth, but as we all know, the truth doesn’t come in versions.
An honest politician would never be elected (unfortunately).
Ignorance is a lot different than stupidity, and the two should never be compared. The ignorant can be educated (that’s why I linked that article at the beginning of the thread).
I believe stupidity is a stubborn minded choice and a lot easier than thinking — but we should also never forget that our perception of stupidity is subjective.
Flatus, I’ve been really worried about you.
Don’t ever do that again (forget your meds). And if you do, you can always talk to a pharmacist or someone who will contact your pharmacy or doctor and then will help you out with a couple of days of medication. Not having your medicine is always an emergency. All that suffering should never have happened, and my heart goes out to you for what you suffered through.
I am 57 soon to be 58 years old. I remember my fourth birthday quite vividly. I had chicken pox and I was pissed.
Why is it that Mitt and his republican nitwits assume that I can’t remember anything prior to January 2009?
Just asking.
… oops, Jamie wrote that quote above ‘to’ Sturge. Sorry for misquoting it.
Gurrr-rate thread by the way!
I leaned a lot.
Tony, 2 thumbs up, buddy!!!
I think the arguments we just had are an example of why awe have a
vibrant system here -- anything that can be found wrong will be screamed about by someone. I’m glad some feel like doing the arguing because I don’t have it in me and I would therefore not be a sharp caretaker. The problem is that there is no answer so the argument has to go on forever. What gets me is that I want to say to all, What do/did you expect?
Giving power to just one, or just a few, is fraught with danger. That’s why I think feeling emotional and personal about the person with the power is a mistake. Anyone with that kind of power, if
not evil, has responsibilities that often cancel each other out.
Risks, terrible risks, have to be taken constantly, and judgements
made. How can anyone believe anybody who has experience in those areas hasn’t made compromises with herself/himself that aren’t easy and aren’t nice? If a president breaks one of those laws thinking it necessary, what are you going to do about it? Stop everything and have a trial? If the action of a president saves the constitution and country, what can you do? If it harms us, lets send him to jail. I hope any president has the brains and judgement to take the best chance. I’m glad for the ones who care enough to attempt a job that confounds human endeavor. just sayin’
willard romney is a self-scuttling gaffe-rigged bark.
Federal Judge Issues Permanant Injunction Against NDAA
Yesterday, Judge Katherine Forrest–a recent Obama appointee–permanently enjoined (prevented) enforcement of a portion of the National Defense Authorization Act, stating that the law “impermissibly impinges on guaranteed First Amendment rights and lacks sufficient definitional structure and protections to meet the requirements of due process.” (Ultraculture)
The NDAA is a federal law signed into law by President Obama on December 31, 2011 that authorizes the government to detain persons–without charge or trial–including U.S. citizens, who “substantially support” Al-Qaeda, the Taliban or their “associated forces.”
Obama’s lawyers (Yes, our constitutional scholar-in-chief) had argued that the courts should, ‘stay out of it’ and “exercise deference to the executive and legislative branches and decline to rule on the statute’s constitutionality.” Obama’s lawyers are expected to appeal this ruling and many wonder if they will ignore it all-together.
I’m in the process of rereading “Les Miserables” which I last read at least 30 years ago. In reading the translator’s notes, I was interested in this commentary:
Wired -- 09.12.12: The House on Wednesday reauthorized for five years broad electronic eavesdropping powers that legalized and expanded the George W. Bush administration’s warrantless wiretapping program.
The FISA Amendments Act, (.pdf) which is expiring at year’s end, allows the government to electronically eavesdrop on Americans’ phone calls and e-mails without a probable-cause warrant so long as one of the parties to the communication is believed outside the United States. The communications may be intercepted “to acquire foreign intelligence information.”
The government has also interpreted the law to mean that as long as the real target is al-Qaida, the government can wiretap purely domestic e-mails and phone calls without getting a warrant from a judge. That’s according to David Kris, a former top anti-terrorism attorney at the Justice Department.
The measure is sponsored by Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) and the Obama administration has called its passage a top intelligence priority. (.pdf) The bill generally requires the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court to rubber-stamp terror-related electronic surveillance requests that ensnare Americans’ communications.
“Giving power to just one, or just a few, is fraught with danger.”
Well said, Bethyboo! … and a wonderful post you made there.
MQW,
The information that you’ve brought to light here has been so eye opening, that it’s scary. How did we get to the point where we are now.
NEW THREAD