Twenty five years ago (when Paul Ryan was 18 years old) I spent a lot of time with Joe Biden as he pursued the presidency. He’s a force of nature still going strong. Here’s what I found those many years ago, not much different than what you see and what you get today.
watching the Vice President debate Rep. Paul Ryan.
By Craig Crawford, The Orlando Sentinel (Sept. 6, 1987) — Talking to Joe Biden is a physical contest. First, he stands practically on your toes, stares right between your eyeballs and says loudly, “So what’s up?”
While you’re fumbling for an answer, the 44-year-old Democratic senator from Delaware turns on The Smile, a disarming ear-to-ear grin with the power of a floodlight.
About the time you take a breath, the verbal assault begins. The non-stop barrage of politician-chatter leaves aides, reporters and others within range drooping, their eyes glazed over.
Biden relies on sheer pushiness, oratorical flourish and a fiercely loyal family to succeed. Indeed, if this trim, balding racquetball enthusiast becomes president, then Mikhail Gorbachev had better start practicing his eye contact and verbal skills.
Critics say Biden is all talk and no substance, that he is inclined to make the ill-considered statement that later haunts him. They say his legislative achievements pale in comparison to his rhetoric. Those complaints have provoked even longer, more detailed Biden speeches, replete with lots of facts and figures about his 15 years in the Senate.
The son of an Irish Catholic car salesman who liked to discuss history and politics at the family dinner table, Biden pokes fun at his own reputation for long-windedness.
When an aide passed him a note during an Aug. 15 talk to some uncommitted Florida Democrats in Orlando, Biden said, “He’s telling me to shut up.” The group laughed, but then the candidate talked for another eight minutes.
This month Biden will be squarely in the limelight when the Senate Judiciary Committee, which he chairs, takes up the controversial nomination of Robert Bork to the Supreme Court.
True to form, Biden has already seized the gauntlet and loudly begun fighting the Reagan administration on Bork — after first having to explain away his rash statement that he would vote to approve the nomination.
Biden, who got his first date with his wife, Jill, by getting her to break another date, attributes his aggressiveness to a zeal for sports while growing up in a middle-class neighborhood in Wilmington, Del.
He played basketball, football and baseball in high school, though his father made him quit sports at the University of Delaware to improve his perennial C average.
“I was always the little guy on the team,” said the 6-foot-tall Biden. “I guess that made me more competitive.”
The eldest of four children, Biden was the neighborhood leader — class president, the all-purpose athlete, the guy who got the girls, the fellow so popular he never really had a best friend.
Politics was a natural progression for the local golden boy and his outgoing family. Friends remember the Biden clan referred to his political forays as “our career” or “when we win.” His sister, Valerie Biden Owens, has managed all his campaigns, including the presidential bid, and his brothers are key fund-raisers.
After a short time practicing law, the 27-year-old Biden was ready for politics. Family members set their sights low for the first outing: He was elected to the New Castle County Council in 1970.
Having gotten a taste of victory, they immediately tackled what to many others seemed a ridiculous goal: the U.S. Senate. Just two years later, the 29-year-old Biden ousted a two-term incumbent Republican. He was sworn in a few weeks after turning 30, the constitutionally required age.
The charmed life took a tragic turn when his first wife, Neilia, and their 13-month-old daughter died in a car wreck shortly after Biden’s Senate election. After some years of despondency — he often sat in his den and stared at the wall until dawn — Biden regained his single-minded will to succeed.
Senate colleagues admire his alertness, but they also get weary of his talkativeness.
“He’s very bright, very articulate,” Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, said. “His major defect is that he goes on and on.”
Biden’s harshest critics say he is a phony, an ambitious charmer calculating his rise to national prominence.
“I have nothing but contempt for him,” said Walter Berns of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington, D.C. “That grin makes my teeth grate. I can see the nefarious plotting behind it.”
Biden knows his style doesn’t sit well with many people.
“I cut against the grain,” Biden said in response to Berns’ comments. “I find myself at odds with liberals and conservatives. But I believe that people most want to see strength and conviction in a president.”
Those hard-charging qualities are definitely what Biden likes people to see.
At the head table of a luncheon two weeks ago in San Francisco, Biden whipped out a pad and feverishly worked on a Judiciary Committee memorandum. Preoccupied with the task, he nearly missed his own introduction.
Yet when he took the microphone, he had refocused. He treated the audience of lawyers to an all-out attack on the Bork nomination, complaining that the federal judge has left conflicting signals about his views on critical issues, and shouting, “Let’s stop pussyfooting around and find out what Judge Bork really thinks.”
Brashness has long been a Biden trait.
“Joe was a hothead on the ballfield,” said Marty Londergan, a Wilmington dentist who played football with Biden. “Sometimes he taunted our opponents so much that we’d be lucky to get out of there with our shirts on.”
Despite his legendary motor-mouth, Biden once stuttered so badly that in grade school he was exempted from talking in front of his class. To get rid of the handicap, he practiced reading aloud and talking to neighbors while collecting their soft drink bottles to make money.
Valerie Owens believes that the experience fueled much of her brother’s determination to excel. “I remember him coming home after some of the kids had made fun of the stuttering,” said Owens. “But instead of going to a corner and crying, he went into his room, shouting: ‘Damn it. I’m going to speak and I’m going to speak directly because that little creep will not make fun of me again.’
“That’s the great fire in him we see today,” she said.
Owens disagrees with political observers who say that Biden’s tendency to shoot from the hip will get him in trouble.
“Some people say hothead, but I say passion,” Owens said of her brother. “Joe feels. He has definite opinions and commitment. You know where you stand with him.”
Biden doesn’t shrink from public displays of his passion. Last spring during a televised Senate hearing he lambasted Secretary of State George Shultz for “lacking moral backbone” in handling South African policy. “That was Joe,” said Owens. “He didn’t lose his temper, but he was adamant, committed and mad. Some people may be looking for politicians who are sterile and bland, but that’s not real.”
Growing up, the Biden children were a noisy clan encouraged to express themselves. They would come home from school, get a plate of cookies or a piece of cake and tell their mother, Jean, and father, Joe Sr., whatever was going on in their lives.
“We were raised not to feel silly kissing, hugging and talking,” said Owens.
The Biden children also were known for their extraordinary confidence.
“My mother and father always reinforced the notion that there wasn’t anything I couldn’t do,” Biden said during an unusual calm in July between appointments in his Senate office.
“Success was especially important if other people had a stake in it,” he said. “For example, it would bother them a great deal if you didn’t do your best in a baseball or football game and the team lost because of it. But it wasn’t so important in a track meet, or an activity where I was the only one who suffered.”
Talking about history and current events was standard fare in the Biden household.
“Dad was not a college-educated man, but he was very well read,” said Biden. “He always had newspapers around. He read everything from the soup can label to historical biographies.”
Joe Sr. made sure that all his children went to college.
“He loved to discuss our history classes,” said Biden. “You could get a perspective from Dad that wasn’t in the textbooks. He always had an insight.” The Biden house was a neighborhood gathering place, which furthered the younger Joe’s reputation as the guy to hang out with.
“The door was never locked,” said Biden. “You could walk into my house and never know who would be there. Maybe 20 other kids grew up in our house and a hundred others passed through.”
Jean was a favorite counselor for neighborhood children. They would spend hours at her kitchen table, spilling their troubles. “We would say, ‘Mom is hearing confession again,’ ” said Biden.
Despite their outgoing style, the Biden family is a tight unit, keeping control of the elder brother’s political career to themselves.
When Biden considered marrying Jill Jacobs in 1977 after a two- year courtship, his brothers Frank and Jim took her out for dinner and discussed the future. They explained the family’s plans for a presidential campaign one day.
Jill, 36, said she could handle such soaring goals but thought “it was so far in the future, who knew what could happen?” They were married later that year.
Now a teacher for emotionally disturbed children, Jill is raising the two teen-age boys from Biden’s first marriage and a 6-year-old daughter. She is also attending graduate school in English literature.
Biden is just as determined to maintain a family life as he is about everything else. Until recently he rode the train every workday between Washington and Wilmington, just to be near Jill and the children. Now that a national campaign schedule has nixed that routine, they travel with him whenever possible.
Despite his many roles — devoted family man, candidate, embattled Senate leader — Biden believes he can do it all, just like his parents told him he could.
“I’m very comfortable,” he said, flashing that smile. “It just seems natural.”
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124 Responses to Still Biden After All These Years
Now on The Trail
Hope this is a frosty morn woo.
I met Biden when we were both pups (well, compared to now)- probably 1977 or ’78. He was a guest of the UofA Young Dems -- I was their faculty sponsor. I found him to be a bit distant at that time -- kinda one of those make eye contact, talk to you and be looking for the next person to talk to while he’s still talking with you kind of guys.
Frosty morn.
Actually it was the first frosty morn of the season here.
tonight they woo the voters, and all is well, steady as she goes…
biden’s a character, all right…nice picture of our vice-president.
oops…time for lower case woo.
Brutally-honest-Joe v that lying-little-suck-up-Ryan
Should be quite a stark contrast, especially if Joe calls Ryan out every time he lies…which will most likely be every time Ryan moves his lips.
Another stark contrast is how energetic Biden looks next to Obama. The Prez looks tired, to the point of being unwell.
And, I don’t think there is such a thing as Biden being too tough. Lyin’ Ryan should not be a breath away from the OO.
What gets me, is that there are people down here who have only heard Ryan is some big numbers guru with all of the answers. People are not paying attention!
So, Biden needs to say something that will get attention. It’s sad that it could come down to soundbites, but…
Joe! Joe! Joe!
Entertainment and politics meet again. Roger Ebert on Who Do You Believe Mitt Or Your Lyin’ Memory
And Joe’s parents sound amazing! Great writing, Craig.
Real v Fake — get your popcorn ready!
ps -- MSNBC should stop running those ridiculous ads with Rev. Al, and especially, Lawrence O’Donnell.
It’s Up to Joe
by Taylor Marsh
Chains required. Whips Optional. The Onion steps in to Hit Ryan Harder.
Does every VP debate response start with, “Well, God forbid I should assume the presidency,” and end with, “…otherwise I’ll just kinda hang out, maybe see what’s going on at NASA”?
Poor Joe Biden. The fate of the free world is on his shoulders.
Just remember as soon as the debate starts begin tweeting or facebooking or generally commenting --isn’t Joe great he’s wiping the floor with Eddie Munster
The Mittster is the guy with all the fake twitter accounts --just what do you think they are doing with them?
Nice column Craig..especially the childhood memories
When Paul Ryan was 18 he was partying it up at a publicly funded university in southern Ohio -- the state party school of Ohio — Miami of Ohio. I went to the University of Wisconsin and I can’t for the life of me figure out why someone would pick Miami of Ohio over UW --except to get farther away from home. Ryan gives the appearance of intelligence but it appears he is not all that bright but he does speak well and gives the appearance of making sense — which is what Rmoney did in the debate.
I think Biden has to translate what Ryan is really saying. “Ryan-Rmoney plan offers pre-existing condition coverage --if you are already covered ”
Ryan Romney offers a better form of medi-care. What they really mean is ” We are going to give you a check once a year and then you can go to the unregulated medical market place and here’s a four leaf clover.”
My personal legislative agenda contains no anti-abortion legislation. What he means is” on the first day in office I will end funding to planned parenthood.”
Rmoney never says what he is going to really do. Very Nixonian
It’s a no-win for Biden, as I see it. If he sounds brilliant, he overshadows the President. If he makes the points the President should have last week, he emasculates his boss (GOP would love that), and if he performs poorly, GOP momentum continues.
All Ryan has to do is show up and not say anything stupid.
Interesting reading the comments on Steven Hawking from the prior thread. Not sure what the beef with him is. If I understand the premise of his latest book -- or at least the premise of the controversial part of it -- it’s that ours is one universe with one set of scientific principles that if known explain everything in the universe, and that it is entirely possible that there are an infinite number of other universes that have different scientific principles that explain everything in them, and that it is not necessary to understand God (or even for there to be a god) to understand the universe. Hawking’s response to the critics of his book “One can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, but science makes God unnecessary.” sort of sums it up. Could he be wrong? Sure. Could he be right? I’d say it’s just as possible he is. I understand that their explanation is consistent with M-Theory, which I don’t have a clue about, and the explanations of it are so far beyond my meager understanding of physics that I couldn’t begin to say whether it even seems to have any merit. All I can say is that it is a theory -- and some theories seem to explain stuff and some don’t.
Ryan is the Koch Bros Manchurian candidate
I hope they have an engaged, extensive, and respectful policy debate, though, that would be refreshing.
Have a good day.
I disagree Iggy
I think if Biden sticks to making sure Ryan is telling the truth and not do anything fancy -- he can win and just be doing his job. Traditionally the job of the vp is to be the attack dog. Look at the Big Prick Dick Cheney and his debates he arrived in a kennel
The last time that happened at the Des Moine Register Debate people complained like crazy because it was too boring
I don’t know champ -- I don’t see the debates as a zero sum game. I think Biden doing well doesn’t reflect poorly on Obama -- but we’re all entitled to our opinions. The only VP debates I can really remember much from are the Bentson -- Quayle debate (and only the “You’re no Jack Kennedy” exchange) and the Biden (or should I say O’Biden?) -- Palin debate. That last one was just wonderful -- it was her audition for FauxNews, which by showing how big an idiot she could be she passed with flying colors.
I watch some of the House Oversight Committee hearing on Benghazi yesterday. People like Deputy Assistant Secretary Charlene R. Lamb give bureaucrats a bad name. She is a pure bean counter that can not or will not think. Her statement “We had the correct number of assets in Benghazi” is an absolutely absurd statement when 4 people have been killed. If you “had the correct number of assets” no one would have died!
Granted House Republican lawmakers shaved $128 million in 2011 and $331 million in 2012 from the administration’s request for embassy security funding. And what in the hell are we doing with 6,000 contractors in Baghdad! They should have moved just a few to Benghazi. What are we doing in Iraq anyway?
I expect Hilary Clinton to fix her department.
State Dept. Meltdown at Benghazi Hearing
By Alana Goodman, October 10, 2012 4:45 PM
Pogo
Cheney v Edwards talk about uncomfortable
passing msnbc I see on my screen: Mika and Morning Moe on the left….David Gregory and Chuck Toad on the right.
That’s a depressing hunk of humanity right there.
poobah, add to that the gentle touch to the hand and to the shoulder while he’s smiling and talking to you his temporary center of the universe. and the magneticism that draws you (man or woman… probably dogs, cats and little kids) to him almost compelling a hug. huggable is the applicable word.
pogo, absolutely the opposite of the man you described as “a bit distant”.
Reminder: New thread tonight 8:45p ET for debate watch. Let’s party!
during tonight’s debate, our cues to take a drink should be everytime joe says “god love him” and everytime paul puts the questioner off with “it’s too complicated to answer” answer.
the dude abidens
Sturgeone: I like your “Chuck Toad.”
I’ve alway called him “Tuck Chod” but your name is better.
I usually don’t watch debates.
I just listen to the “analysts” the next day.
It’s the only way I can figure out who won.
actually, everytime i see biden i expect to hear don adams’ get smart lines like
all very relevant to use in a debate with ryan
Good read there Craig. So the Orlando Sentinel could publish 1500+ words back then eh? Those were the days.
geeeez….
only political junkies would consider watching a VP debate as “party time”…
ha, Zvyozdochka, was thinking that very thing when posting
hehe RR, just not fair that sports junkies get their world series, superbowl etc. fix every year — and we political junkies only get ours every 4
Don Adams: “Craw??”
The Claw: “No! it’s Craw!”
Don Adams: “Craw?!?”
Great article, Craig.
Joe Biden, great, long time Democrat. Paul Ryan, junior wonk, punk.
Toad is as Toad does.
Biden is a Democrat from the old school; he knows how to speak to people in the working class. Obama does not.
You would think, given Obama’s humble background, that he would be able to relate to working people, but he spent too much time running away from his past, trying too hard to impress the Harvard crowd. Working people, who do low-wage blue and white collar jobs, like politicians who talk about their shared dreams of the future, and YELL at their opponents.
All Obama wants to do is talk about what he considers to be “rational” compromise policies, and he’s too nice. He leaves you with the feeling that he doesn’t really care about the people who support him enough to fight for them.
Biden has a very good record on women’s issues and I think if he can steer the discussion to these issues Ryan will be in the position of having to defend a record that will offend the very voting bloc they need to win…or he will once again display the contortionism that is the basis of the Rmoney philosophy
Obama maintains a comfortable lead in Ohio despite the ridiculous posturing of Rancid Getoffthebuss-- and where is the Democratic chairwoman these days
What is the position of the Mitt Romney to end fed funding to planned parenthood on your first day in office or to pretend you have no anti-abortion agenda
Say what?
lol
Reading a new to me financial blog.
I liked this post
The rest is well worth your time imo
Jack
took a stroll through a slew of battleground state polls — definitely see a slight Romney debate bounce, but not enough to gain solid leads, just some ties where Obama once had the edge — remarkably low numbers of “persuadable” voters left suggest he’s hit his ceiling. Doesn’t mean he can’t bust through it, but it’ll take some unforeseen drama, like more decisive debate wins or other “externals,” to do it.
Pakistani schoolgirl shot by Taliban
Is a society that can turn out protestors by the millions for a picture and only have a tepid response to this kind of action really a society we want to have anything to do with?
I think Pakistan qualifies to be called barbarian, at all levels.
Jack
Given the past histories of the campaigns, I think it is more likely Rmoney will screw up
I think someone should ask Rmoney what he was apologizing for — was he wrong about the 47% mathmatically or about who he thought was in the 47% ..what does he think was wrong about the statement
You know, I think Romney is still going to flop. Obama, on the other hand, he pissed me off. He reminded me of myself. I’d know an important was coming and I would begin cram studying to try and get the tests right and of course I wouldn’t be prepared and it showed. How President Obama could have missed the significance of looking so nonplussed would not have a significant effect on his strength and momentum. Most of us know that the President has TRIED to fix the economy but the party of “NO” has purposely done everything possible to keep his hands tied in an attempt to make sure the President would not and could not get a second term. I am nervous, but I am convinced the President will win again. Less than before, but still win. The biggest mistake perhaps had to deal with social security. It was like the President just didn’t want to talk about it at all. Bad sign. How do you all feel? I’d like to know how many think Romney will win?
http://youtu.be/bzHjH7ZTQQA
For some fun watch this parody of Ann Romney by comedian Rosemary Watson. She is brilliant (sp) and even Carol Burnett named her as an up-and-coming comedian in the new generation. ENJOY… there are 3 videos.
http://youtu.be/bzHjH7ZTQQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inftr-W67dE&feature=share&list=UU75G9WRbl7twZTWaGFoKf8Q
Eurotom, always nice to see you in the hood.
Thank you so much Craig. I had problems logging in again then I realized I could use my facebook to get in. Glad to read the comments as always.
I’m with eurotom Obama still wins
Eurotom
How’s the government doing -- is it any different then when it wasn’t there
Pogo,
I don’t like the word theory…it should be scientific-fact. At leas it should be proven-theory because when the scientific society approves someone ideas as proof…it becomes a theory.
Here is What Hawkings told the Pope b/c of his proven scientific theory:
“In conclusion: there is no God, no heaven, no after life…since there was no time before the big-bang”
I would love schools to teach religion in the same class with science….let the young see the difference between the to.!
I taped this when it first came out not too long ago.
Its a miracle, miracle i tell you that S. H. can do all of this just with his mind. Here is something worth hearing:
Looks like this time it really is different and old thinking by both the Republicans and Obama are out of step.
Read the rest at Naked Capitalism
Jack,
Thanks for all of the financial posts that u make.!
Ive learned a lot from them……now if i can only remember what ive read….
ETom… good to see you. I think Obama will win.
Here’s a jibjab from 2007… it’s a bit dated, but still very much applies…
What We Call the News
just had a taste for something sweet. Grabbed an handful of nestles um-sweetened chocolate morsels, added some dried cranberries, some peanuts …from Aldis..cheap for 2.50 1 lb jar…taste like my favorite Chunky candy bar……later
My best to Avuncular Joe--
As for Ryan, that widow’s peak creeps me out. I’d never sleep after looking at it for an hour and a half.
champ -- A strong showing by Biden only helps the Dem ticket.
After all, Romney picked that sniveling, little liar for veep. So that’s an indication of his leadership style.
And, of course, if folks come away feeling uncomfortable with Lyin’ Ryan as #2 (pun, no pun -- meh), that just helps Obama, too.
The Prez has two more chances to build on what Biden does tonight.
Go, Joe! Go!
I was gonna make popcorn, but maybe a little Texas caviar for the viewing.
faire -- You’re supposed to get lost in his dreamy, blue eyes, and not be distracted by his devilish hairline…or by all of the lies he spews.
tony, i know you’re hesitant to vote for a presidential candidate, but please be sure at least to vote the down ticket races. according to hiaasen it looks like florida is about to be cold-koched in the judiciary….and that would hurt a lot!
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/29/3025110/billionaire-koch-brothers-try.html
blue, are texas caviar just bite-sized rocky mountain oysters?
Lordy, no! I’m a vegetarian. Lots of recipes on the internet if you’re interested, but I’d suggest using black beans and not black-eyed peas.
looks like he’s slipped his leash already. unplugged and pugnacious. ready for bear.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/joe-biden-debate-strategy_n_1958153.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
you eat the bear or the bear eats you
Solar
Here is you another one, looks like a good read if you have the time and you don’t mind making the brain cells sweat.
mqw, you might want to look at it too. looks to be a good basic primer on stuff you keep puzzling through.
Understanding The Modern Monetary System
Jack
here’s a doozy: FL time-share mogul threatens his 7,000 workers with layoffs if Romney loses http://bit.ly/UTxMl2
Solar,
I hate to commit a theology, but what I am about to write encroaches on that ridiculous field.
Unlike you and I other great thinkers make mistakes. Hawking goofed by saying that because there is no time before the BB, therefore G!D can’t exist. Implicit in this odd assertion is the notion that G!D (or Olympos, or The Cosmic Mushroom, etc) is contingent. In this case, Hawking’s odd god is contingent on the existence of material, the movement or changes in material constituting the passage of time. Hawking’s notion of a contingent deity is so different from Moses’, Muhammad’s, St. Francis’, MLK Jr’s, Gandhi’s, etc notions about the deity, that I was tempted at first to think Hawking merely claims G!D can’t be G!D -- a logical fallacy.
Several years later, I have changed my opinion. I now think Hawking is saying that his odd little god isn’t G!D. I agree.
For the paranoid or folks like craig who need to keep their cell phone conversations private.
military grade encryption for your iphone for $20 a month
Craig
I saw that yesterday and my first thought was “sure he will”
Then I though “Lucky bastards, I mean to get fired from a bullshit company like that? How lucky can you get.”
Jack
So, Hawking’s Proof is not a proof at all, but rather a demonstration of an objection to the existence of G!D. Demonstrations and proofs are two different things.
Also, in science the word theory means an explanation that is not proven. Quantum mechanics, Evolution of species, Relativity, and Game Theory are still just theories, even though we use them to analyze and make our world.
Creation theory is also a theory, however its basis is religious rather than scientific.
In fact if I were those folks I’d call in sick next Monday and go job hunting. All 7000 of them, imagine it.
The man walks in the building and silence. Not one time share being sold.
Ill bet that gets the bankruptcy judge’s attention.
lol
and he does want to get that unpleasntness behind him so he can go on building his super mansion
Jack
Jack & Craig,
I seem to remember this guy being in huge financial trouble. Naturally, if he goes under the employees get the shaft. However it appears that the biggest threat to his company’s well-being is his outlandishly large portion of the payroll.
The best thing about him is that he comes off as 1. a republican, and 2. an extortionist. The way he has marketed his greed ties extortion to republican values.
XR,
Fine, then God is the “Big Bang”….i don’t mind that at all since the big bang started out from nothing…maybe parallel universes rubbing up next to each other…but i think that energy at one time was so condensed that it just exploded….so maybe god is energy….which makes my we are “it” gods ourselves even better….but at the very least….i know that the mean old, vindictive, jealous, peeping into bedrooms god of the bible is not even close to the truth of it all……now lets do our jobs as inspired old people and teach this to the young….maybe they will stop killing each other no?
Carl Sagan said something like:
I don’t understand why U would believe in such a small god…the one in bible….when there is a much greater one (the universe itself) waiting to be discovered….and we will never understand the universe in its entirety imo….
It wasn’t just Sagans genius at explanation that laid the groundwork for scientist-popularizers like Greene and his astronomical counterpart…. Neil deGrasse Tyson. It was also his willingness to go where no scientist had gone before — specifically, late-night TV, where he was a frequent guest on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. Other scientists were appalled: Sagan’s ventures outside the ivory tower ultimately kept him from being elected to the prestigious National Academy of Sciences….but not any more…he is a god…well we are all IT….
Thanks for that last post on the last thread…have read some of that info before…and will admit to not being all that knowledgeable about them…but will do so as soon as i can….but it remains the same……the three abrahamic religions are thieves…they stole all of the bible stories that they have in that book…
However, I don’t think the walking-in-the-door-and-hearing-silence scenario is believable. Guys like this probably only walk in the door for quarterly board meetings. More likely, the Fed Court administrator would walk in and encounter silence.
Xrep, when did I ever say my imagination was based in reality. It is a sweet dream.
Here is more about the idiot
Looks like he is a Donald Trump wannabe.
Jack
from one of those links I posted today
Quote of the day: Government is a tool created by us and for us.
god it fun to read intelligent writing.
Jack
Solar,
It’s not stealing if the the copyright ran out 1,000 years before. That’s why the Greek religious right, the oracles, the Olympic games, the philosophers and mathmaticians, and the tragedians weren’t all sued for intellectual theft. All the originators had been dead for 1,000 years before the Fall of Troy, which was 800 years before the ‘Golden Age’ (for free adult landed males) of Athens.
This is not to denigrate. Shakespeare took many of his plots from Hollinshead, Froisart, and Plutarch. That doesn’t make Shakespeare a thief or even a cheater.
Jack,
Thanks for the link. From it I gather that seigel imagines he suffered for 42 years while building his business, and he therefore deserves the right to take his emplyees’ right to vote away from them.
Did I get that right ?
Solar, let me weigh in on this one.(what the hell it beats smoking dope)
I don’t think so, after all as the patent clerk(Einstein) told us matter is energy and energy is matter. Matter you can hit with your hand. Is God someone you can just haul off and smack when ever you want?
I mean really…….
Jack
Xrep, that sums him up.
That and the fact that his real job is getting his wife’s reality TV show off the ground so that they have an income stream that doesn’t go through bankruptcy court
Solar,
Perhaps the gods were small because the original story writers and their immediate audiences did not have terms like ‘trans-material,’ ‘omnipresent,’ and ‘imanent’ in their vocabularies.
I imagine that in 5,000 years Hawking’s lack of sophistication will lead a future Sagan to fault his narrowness.
After all the guy sells time shares, you know he has to have a con going of some kind. It is genetic with him.
Jack
Craig,
Since things crashed during the last debate, you might try using Twitter with a hashtag of #Trailmix and let their servers carry the weight. Everyone can follow along simply by bringing up the #trailmix page to see all comments plus being able to tweet themselves. Limits the length but allows for more people.
Other hashtags in use are #debate #debates #vpdebate anybody need help in using them, just whistle and I’ll try to do a step by step.
The purveyors of the Small God Theory of Biblical Interpretation (whether Solar, Hawking, falwell, or aquinas) ignore the fact that Genesis was never meant to be a scientific document. It is about ethics and becoming Godly. It relates tragedies as cautionary tales, and sets up models for conducting ones life:
1st: Don’t eat fruit that doesn’t belong to you; respect the rights of others & The Other,
2d: It may be Paradise, but there are false gods in The Garden, so don’t obey a serpent,
3d: Don’t lie to G!D, cuz he knows all about it already, dummie.
4th: Don’t slay thy brother, cuz you ARE his keeper,
Etc.
XR
Currently reading an excellent short biography on Maimonides Now have to pick up a copy of his Guide for the Perplexed written in the 12th Century. The attempt to reconcile religion and science has been going on for a long, long time.
It doesn’t mean that everything appeared in 8,640 minutes and no overtime.
It doesn’t say G!D created for 6 days and then rested.
It says G!D created for 6 days and then drew a breath, indicating that the Creation was a spell/enchantment or song rather than calculation and heavy construction.
If the original meaning was enchantment, then it is possible that the original system of cosmogony was similar to that in the Bhagavad Gita’s and the Gautama Buddha’s systems of cosmogony: that we live in illusion.
OH yeah.!!
Jack, Matter is what makes up (dark matter) the large part of our universe…can’t see it…but its there…without this energy, we would get crushed like a bug….
Is the bible true or not?rael history or not? almost anyone that i have talked to..priest or others…don’t even read the whole bible…they do no admit to the violence in it…..
I call Jessie….no not Jessie the body ventura…the other jesssie…jesus…by all account of what was going on in history during, and after his time….he was a Military Messiah (sturge like that one)……
Mosses in the bible is made out to be (people think) a man of god…a deliver of people to a just life from an injust life….they don’t take the time to find out that he was a military leader…..that once he was out in the desert…..massacred almost as many people as anyone else in history….i know u going to give me statistics agbout hitler, etc…but the point is that he was a cold murderer…just like any murderer in history…..its all there..in the bible ….
Oh and you mentioned Noahs flood…..here are six arguments against that little story of myth…..later
http://tinyurl.com/9kgg72f
If we live in illusion certainty is not possible.
It’d be sort of like The Matrix.
“It is about ethics and becoming Godly.”
But only those in the holy land, and we will get it all…even if we have to steal all of palastine to do it……and we are willing kill u all for it.! my favorite……right after mass….”go in peace”
Solar,
Because of tech improvements, there are many more people in the desert today than in Moses’ day, yet deserts still aren’t teeming. Iow, your statement about the numbers Moses killed has to be grossly exaggerated.
Your statements regarding the vast numbers of people Moses and David killed do not track with your other claims that they were just families that joined to set up a hilltop kingdom. Either they slew heaps of enemies all over the place, or they had a tiny backwater kingdom. Can’t have both.
XR, Is the exodus as told in the bible true? yes or no?
if yes it is totally garbage.! The jewish suffered under ramses a great less than is told.
They were not slaves, but miltary for hire workers…could say that this started “out sourcing” ….about 1-2k…forgot…but the rest were paid workers…not slaves…when they left, they left with military knowedge and training…..and sacked the city while leaving…making them thieves…..
Now the reason that they went into the deseret…was that they were not prepaired to take on all of the armies that were on thier way home to the promised land….that is why they trained for 40yrs?
Moses slew women and children along the way…i don’t know if it was only one or one million…but it was a lot according to the bible….but he could not finish the job….whats his name, got it josh…..had to finish for him……some even think that mosses was killed by his own people…..they were tired of him killing his own…when they did not always kill women and children as ordered…..but thanks for the talk….lunch is on me…u can have the last word….cos most of the time i learn more than i thought i knew from u….
Jack,
http://tinyurl.com/33g8dcj
Are you discussing the Creation Myth and its meaning or today’s Palestinian Creation Myth?
In the latter, Palestinians were brought to an empty land by abu Bakr around 640ce. They conquered this empty land from the Byzantine Greeks who lived way over in Europe. The Palestinians then began to settle around the great(empty) city of Jerusalem, where Muhammad had formerly traded in his wife’s service. In this (empty) land of milk, honey, and 1,000 year old olive trees, the Palestians started the first orchards and farms, for there was no one there when they arrived.
Ya, sure.
Xrep & Solar…
what the hell is all this gibberish… I thought everything one wanted to know about Ramses, Moses, and all that stuff was told to us by Cecil B. DeMille…
duckin’ and runnin’ now…
The SF Giants come from being down two games to eliminate the Reds…(Kind of feel bad for Dusty Baker thouhg)
Solar
Noah’s flood is a little like the difference between weather and climate. Just because you have a massive flood doesn’t mean G!d did it to the whole world. I’m sure whoever wrote about it got very, very wet.
What do you know about what other people experienced way over in Egypt 3,500 years ago?
I’ll bet you don’t even know what Cameroonians in America under Obama feel -- so much closer in time & space.
I don’t know who started all this ducking and running…but get back here…
see u in a few days or on the otherside of the elections..out the door and packed for some fall fun with friends…..later
New York Magazine: The Polls Have Stopped Making Any Sense
Solar,
Make sure they don’t stick you with cleaning all those ducks.
Have fun. Be sure and vote.
I really hope Biden does well; but, lately, he has seemed something like me--older and slower in finding the trigger, and when he does find it, forgetting to have put in the live ammo.
I hope my impression is wrong and that it is just me looking into the mirror.
There was probably a big flood every 50 years, and a CBob type flood every couple hundred years.
Noah, the family, and all the farm animals prolly were stranded in a sea of Mesopotamian mud for 40 days and nights. The raft then beached on a high tell -- maybe a ziggurat.
The Hurrian flood story first makes Ararat the land fall. The Hebrews prolly adopted Ararat for their own flood myth. Maybe.
Mesopotamia is a rich resource of mud, except when it’s dust.
You’re on next, Joe. Break a leg.
Then bust his lyin’ jaw, too.
so what you guys think? i am thinking about breaking my video silence and go on with CNN’s Brooke Baldwin tomorrow afternoon. Kinda like her. have been turning everything else down lately, including Imus. your opinion matters to me
Just a brief note…
CRAIG!!!!!!!!
If you go on CNN and if possible please bring up the fact that $Rmoney is a Bishop and as all Bishops of all Religions, even the Roman Catholic Bishops, follow the edicts of the Holy Church…IE… the Vatican in Rome.
His first duty would be to his Church’s dictates and not the people of America unless he is willing to be Excommunicated from his Church for disobeying their edicts.
Have a great evening all. I’ll be watching MSNBC on the innertubes live stream.
Just wandering through in prep for tonight. And Craig? Go on her show! I understood completely why you pulled back a little, but go on! You’ll have fun, and you’re more informed than most.
Craig, I think you were correct in mounting your job action. I don’t know how many of your independent compatriots joined you, but as I see it, that’s the only way for you folks to finally get a fair deal.
Craig… if CNN is paying than you must get playing.
Seriously… if you want to continue with punditry… it’s probably important that you get back into the game.
And besides… I miss your face on the boobtube…
Another reality show I will never see. It will probably be a hit. We are a sick nation
Jack
OK i agreed to CNN tomorrow aft. Not getting paid, will probably disappear again after but what the heck why not. Truly sick of these ridiculous appearances, will try again.
Craig..you need the exposure, do CNN. They need some fresh thoughts. And everytime you do a show, some new people follow you back to the trail…I do enjoy the new posters.
I am getting my evil eye ready for Lyin’ Ryan. Maybe he will ‘spontaneously combust’ on stage.
Craig
If you are going on for free you need something to sell or be working on something to sell. Other wise you are just doing it for ego boost. Not a bad reason mind you.
I suspect you can’t carry this boycott on too long or you disappear. So you do need to go on once in a while. So stay focused on your needs and take those jobs that take you in that direction
But WTF do I know, I’m a carpenter it is your business and you know it way better than I do or ever will.
Jack
Craig
Well at least have fun tomorrow and it’s probably good to get your face out there from time to time — any show would be lucky to get you
In terms of media punditry, if you could write your own ticket what would it be?
BW…
From your lips to God’s ears.
Have a great evening.
I hope you are sticking around for the debate, AP.
Step out for a day and miss all the excitement…
Sturgeone -- Barba is a misnomer. Barbarian actually does not come from Barba.
Solar -- Ten Commandments come from Old Babylonia and an out-of-date laws called Hammurabi’s Code which were out of date when they were carved onto various stele and posted around the kingdom. Jesus has a lot in common with Dionysus. Examples of this can be seen from Water into Wine and Virgin Birth. The reason for this is that missionaries (both then and today) look at their target and try to connect similarities in the beliefs that they already hold. There is a famous mosaiac that depicts Jesus as Dionysus, Apollo, and another deity who I forget at the moment. Apples of Hesperides are based on a ‘Minoan’ myth of The Blessed Isles. I agree with you that Classics should be taught in schools again (perhaps, then we will make sure no student has to hear from their teacher that the Roman Empire fell because of Nero (even though he had been dead for about 390 years), Romantic languages are called Romantic because they have rhythm so they are meant to be danced to, and just because someone calls their government a democracy does not mean it actually is!). Ancient Myth and Ancient History have much to teach us. Hell, nation building is something that I learned was full of shit in 7th grade when I learned of Theseus’ myth of trying to install democracy in Athens…and how swimingly that lasted for like 5 minutes before the people revolted and he had to install a Monarchy again.
Angellight -- I do not agree with you at all about the President. He lies all the fucking time. He is not brilliant in the least. I do not know why people find him to be so intelligent when we all have seen his negotiating skills.
XRepublican -- The Greeks knew how to read and write before the Phoenicians. But at the end of the bronze age, the scribes mostly died out. Phoenicians taught them the alphabet which they got second hand from the Ancient Egyptians. The Epic of Gilgamesh is like a compilation book of old myths that have tweeked. I prefer the original poems.
Solar -- Every story in the Ancient World is a borrowing from another one that was heard by traders meeting each other along paths between towns. A Great Classicist by the name of Gilbert Highet wrote a very long book on it called “The Classical Tradition: Greek and Roman Influences on Western Literature”.
XRepublican -- Today, Shakespeare would have been sued and had his works taken from the stage for all that he has taken from Ovid and the others.
Solar -- Jesus was a scholar with a wealth of knowledge about various practices and beliefs in the Ancient Near East. Moses was made up. The idea that the ‘Hebrews’ were slaves to the Ancient Egyptians comes from Herodotus. Who believed how the world could these lowly people live so near this great civilization? So he created the story that they were slaves. We know that the ‘Hebrews’ were not slaves because the Ancient Egyptians would have written about it in their temples. These people were real braggers. If the thought that they had enslaved an entire people came through their head, they would have that all over their temple walls and columns. Hell, just look at Rameses II’s portrayal of his battle against the Hittites.
XRepublican -- David Is still consider Legendary. Only mention of him is on a stele by King Josiah. Famous King who created or rewrote the first books in the bible to look like propaganda (these coincidentally hold the holy war garbage).
XRepublican -- Palestinian creation myth is full of shit. They are the same people that were living there during the invasion. Most were christians and were tired of being harassed by Byzantine church so they let the Arab (Diaspora Asiatics) invasion in. They converted for the same reason the Egyptians did. They did not want to pay the extra tax for not being Muslim.
XRepublican -- The flood stories show an overreaction to early stories of the first major flood to be experienced by early agricultural peoples. The only place where there would be no rain and yet still have their plants water is in Egypt…Ancient Egypt (Aswan Dam put a stop to that and any hope of future generations finding more papyrus since mold and bacteria will now find it first due to the moisture).
Craig
Absolutely. Babbling Brooke could use some good company that doesn’t sound like an echo of everyone else.
I believe Mr Buffet’s network of community newspapers deserves a pundit of CC’s quality.
Writing Notes on One’s Hands Not Just for Children Who Forgot To Study!
How old are these people?
How long has he been a congressman for and he expects people to not address him like that?
This has to be one of the dumbest campaign strategies that the Republican party has ever come up with. Maybe if you hear me not called as a Congressman, you will never think of me as the knucklehead who came up with various crazy laws.
Getting ready Democrats — this is a team event
Start your twitters etc…Joe Biden is …well…
perfect
BW…
I am currently watching a live stream of MSNBC from a link I got from tonyb sometime back. I will be flipping between there and here most of the night as I always do.
Not sure if I will be commenting or not though, but will definitely see what everyone is saying over here.
You have a great evening and try not to down from watching the Munster lie his *ss off.
whskyjack, i couldn’t give less of a WTF about my ego or anything else you mention.Going on TV means so little to me I’d rather pull weeds from my front yard, which I really need to do right now.
I need to mention once again that I do not do social media so no Twitter, Facebook or any of the rest of those innertubes programs for me.
All I know is that I will be very disappointed if the VP Joe Biden doesn’t Jap Slap the Shit out of Munster Ryan.
And I say the above with no disrespect to those of Japanese Heritage.
Have a great evening.
Will youtube be streaming the debate tonight?
Jason…
I heard that youtube will be streaming it live, however you can watch it here….
http://tklist.net/tklist/msnbc.php
You have to let the advertisements run then you will be able to watch it.
Have a great evening.
Thanks, anon.
Craig,
I’m not certain just how I stepped on your tail but it appears I have. It was not my intention.
Jack